Women of Fenn College Oral History Project
Carolyn E. Thomas (BBA, 1964)
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Interview conducted through Cleveland State University's Mary Joyce Green Women's Center.
Transcript:
SPEAKER 1: It's right there.
SPEAKER 2: We are talking with Carolyn Thomas, Fenn college class of 1964.
SPEAKER 1: OK.
SPEAKER 2: We are talking with Carolyn Thomas, Fenn College class of 1964 as Carolyn reflects and remembers her days at Fenn. But before we get into your Fenn days, tell us a little bit about yourself. Are you a native Clevelander?
CAROLYN THOMAS: I was not born in Cleveland. But I've been in Cleveland since I was about four years old. So all of my schooling or educational background has been within the Cleveland Public School System. And after graduating from John Adams High School in 1959, I came to Fenn College. It's interesting that I was one of those students that was told by the guidance department that I probably shouldn't go to college.
I know you've heard those stories before, particularly with minority students, that often we are told that. And sometimes, they base things solely on testing situations. But my mother had a different idea. And she said that I was going. And then they said maybe I should go to some proprietary schools in the system that were primarily for minority students at that time, which no longer exists.
And it was suggested that I go there. And my mother said, no, you're not going there. You're going to a regular university or college. And we knew that I could not go away to school because my parents couldn't afford to send me. So the alternative would be Western Reserve at that time or Fenn College. And Fenn accepted me.
And so it began in September of 1959. The, I guess, the most startling thing I remember was freshman orientation. I don't know if you remember that, when they used to go out to the YWCA, I think it's, Center Mills camp. I don't know if it still exists.
But it was a situation where we spent the weekend there. And that was my first experience because I had never had Girl Scout experience. That was my first experience of being overnight away from home. So but it was fun. It was really, really fun. And that's how I began at Fenn college.
The next startling thing that I remember is that, since I decided to go into business or take business classes, I was not enrolled especially for secretarial training. But I took secretarial classes along with business administration. The first two years with the secretarial classes, there were plenty of women that I had classes with in those classes.
The shorthand class, I think we had a big number of three or four. And one of them was a male, which was really unusual back in the day. But Pauline Bloomquist was quite, quite a woman. And I can remember things that she insisted that we learn that even today when I run into people who don't little things. And she used to say, it is your job, if you work in an office, to know what your boss does not know.
He hires you to correct his errors. And but always remember that if he insists on something being done a certain way, then you do it his way, even though his way may be the wrong way. But when he isn't there, at least the right way. But then after the first year, year and a half or two years, I had to take business administration classes.
And that meant that I was-- most of the women had been there for two years. And they graduated and went on and worked. I was the only female plus the only minority in all of my business classes after that. And it wasn't bad. It was hard. But it wasn't bad. And I remember Dr. Theodore.
He was so sweet. And he always gave you those essay tests. And you never knew where it would come from, where the questions would come from. I remember one question that I'll take to my grave. I've studied maybe 300 pages of material. And this is economics. And one question was to talk about the whips of greed and need.
I had no idea [LAUGHS] what the whips of creative need were. And after the test, I went back to the book. And there it was. It was there. And it was just so mind boggling how the kinds of tests that you could have in that kind of setting. Now, accounting was something different. That was factual. That's like math. You got to know it.
But economics, you just didn't know. You didn't know where it was going to come from. I took mostly business classes. Of course, we all had to take what they call breadth-and-depth courses, your English, your sociology, and all of that.
And even though I was not an English major, I enjoyed the English classes. And I did well in them. I don't know why because that was not my interest particularly. But I did do well. And I loved the English classes. And did not have to take a lot. So I took only what I had to take. [LAUGHS]
So that's basically how I got started at Fenn College.
SPEAKER 2: You talked about some of your professors, Bloomquist, Doctor Theodore. Any others that you recall?
CAROLYN THOMAS: I'm sure a lot of people remember Dr. Fauss. She was the typing instructor up on the eighth floor in the corner room. And because I've talked to people who have gone there. and says, oh, yes, Dr. Fauss. And we always thought that she preferred the male students. But I think that was more us than she.
And it was just the two of them in that department, Mrs. Bloomquist and Dr. Faust. And then I remember sitting in the typing class down there on the eighth floor and at the other end the head of the English department. And I can't remember his name.
SPEAKER 2: Dr. Randall?
CAROLYN THOMAS: I don't know, a short guy. I know when he typed, he typed real fast with two fingers. He could type faster with two fingers than most of us could do on our electric typewriters. But his office was at the other end. And I could always remember him typing and her getting ready to give us timed writings. And he's down there and typing. And we're trying to get ready to take this timing. [INAUDIBLE] will you please stop for a moment?
But he was good and I can't remember a lot of the names. But I do remember this one professor that I had for accounting. And I guess the first year is always difficult for most students. But it was particularly difficult for me at that time. And then he walked up to me one day. And he said, you know, why-- he says, take the chip off your shoulder.
And I didn't know that I had a chip on my shoulder. I guess maybe I wasn't smiling. But when you are the only female and there's really no one to talk to unless they talk to you, you don't necessarily initiate a conversation. I had gone to school with white males. But I hadn't been in a situation where it was just totally white males.
So I would come in class. I would sit there. And I would listen. And I would leave. And the only other interaction I might have particularly with other students was, especially since we were in a co-op situation, was the university Christian movement which provided some social outing for me from the standpoint of being down here and being a part of the total school community.
And most of my Black female friends were in elementary ed. Connie Jackson, Marcella, they just honored Marcella last year for all of her work that she's done in the community and so forth. So those people, I didn't necessarily see because once you were in co-op, their co-op experience didn't necessarily coincide.
So you might go a year or two without seeing someone unless you just happened to be down there for a social outing or for some reason. Ask me some more questions. I can't think of anything else I want to say.
SPEAKER 2: I remember you from intramurals.
CAROLYN THOMAS: Yes. I forgot, Jane Pease.
SPEAKER 2: Intramurals.
CAROLYN THOMAS: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes, I did participate in that. I had completely forgotten about that. The funny-- I did, I think, volleyball. But the one thing that I wanted to do and never was able to do and have not been able to do, I wanted to do fencing. And I went out, I think, one time. [LAUGHS] And I knew that it would not-- that was not my vernacular. That was not my shot. [LAUGHS]
SPEAKER 2: What happened? Do you remember?
CAROLYN THOMAS: Once, I guess, I didn't know I was claustrophobic. And when the helmet came down, it was like I was so disoriented. I didn't know. I-- mm-mmm-- just couldn't. It wasn't going to work. So I went the one time. And that was it.
SPEAKER 2: So you stuck with the volleyball.
CAROLYN THOMAS: The volleyball. And I think I did spend some time with the newspaper working on the news. But that was so funny. I think about that, the fencing because my grandnephew, just this past year, he-- his sister is very athletic. So his mother said, go out and play. And they were playing basketball.
And they threw the ball at him. And he says, no, no. Basketball is not for me. Well, fencing was not for me. So I told her, I said, don't bother him. He knows what's for him. And what it's not for him. If that's not for him-- and as it turned out now, he's a shortstop and a second baseman on a baseball team. So he found his niche. Well, volleyball was my niche. And and that's what I stuck with for the time that I was able to do it.
And Miss Pease she was a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful person. I just liked her, not for her athleticism. But also, I liked talking to her because she was always so warm and so even tempered. And she always had something nice to say. That's my remembrance of her.
I do remember-- I can see his beautiful, gray hair. He was the counselor. And I can't think of his name. He would come sometimes to the meetings. And a couple of times, I went to see him. And he was always there to talk to you if you needed to discuss things, whatever the problem may happen to be.
And sometimes, you just didn't have anybody to talk to that you needed someone to talk to. Sometimes, you could not always talk about what you wanted to talk about with your parents. But I always had a fear of failure. And the idea of failing, I just could not, for the life of me, I could not envision myself telling my mother that I had failed.
And there were times when the grade level did not meet what they should have been early on. I know the first year, we always had to take that English test that you had to pass in order to go on. The night before the English test, I was going to study. I fell asleep. And I didn't wake up until it was time to come to class the next time.
And I got through it. But I don't know how. But when I look back and when I see what's not being done today, I'm glad they did it. I'm glad they insisted that we learned or got a command. I don't consider myself a grammarian by any sense, by any stretch of the imagination. But I feel like when I read something, I know how to punctuate.
My niece is a college professor. And she teaches writing. And she's always talking about how students, what they don't know when they come to school now. And I am so glad that we came along when we did come along in terms of learning the skills that we had to learn, as far as the writing skills are concerned. But I'm glad that I also got it in high school because it starts there.
It starts long before you get to college. If you hadn't gotten it before you got to college, it's just that I never had that kind of comprehensive exam. And now the exams now, I think they've gone too far to the other extreme. They're testing so much that kids don't get any fun out of learning. Because learning, to me, needs to be fun. It needs to be something that you can address on a daily basis. But if you're only teaching for the test, I just don't see how the students are benefiting from it.
SPEAKER 2: You were a high school teacher. But I want to go back to a little bit before we talk about your career after Fenn. Your--
CAROLYN THOMAS: My co-op?
SPEAKER 2: [INAUDIBLE] program.
CAROLYN THOMAS: Oh.
SPEAKER 2: [INAUDIBLE]
CAROLYN THOMAS: Oh, that was the most wonderful experience. Mr. Simcox who was in the co-op office because my first two or three experiences, the other students got jobs. I didn't get a job. I worked here in the alumni office because at that time, you didn't see any Blacks working in offices downtown.
There were none. There was none. And Mr. Simcox said, we're going to get a job. You're going to get a job. Because I had taken to going from door to door downtown, just knocking on doors just to kind of get a job. I worked on playground, which wasn't a bad experience, you know. But it wasn't what I was training to do.
I worked in alumni office part time and during the school year. And that was basically it. And I don't know if he knew someone or whether Diamond-- at that time it was called Diamond Alkali-- whether they just decided that they were going to do it. And they hired me. And I worked in the personnel department primarily as an intern and as a co-op.
And that was another very wonderful, wonderful experience. There was only one other Black person in the company at that time. And he was the man that drove the mail truck between Cleveland and Painesville. And so I spent two and a half, almost three years at Diamond Alkali, alternating with-- I can't think of-- Bobbie-- Bobbie Hammond now, but that wasn't her name when she was here-- and another young lady from Cleveland State and her name escapes-- three of us, because we took turns.
We would go to school. And I think that was the wonderful thing about Fenn and being able to co-op. and I did that until it was time for me to do student teaching. And they gave me an opportunity to learn so much at Diamond.
I worked not only in personnel. They would assign me to different offices. I worked in the legal department. I worked in transportation. I worked in public relations. A lot of different places within the department, I worked. And it grew to the point where there were times when I got an opportunity to interview people who were coming in for jobs, even though that was not my role. I was co-op student.
The one memorable experience, I don't know if you remember the big snow of either '62 or '63. And everything stopped. And I walked from my parents' home to Kinsman and took the bus. There was one bus running. The Kinsman bus got me downtown. And we walked from Public Square to 9th Street.
When I got there, there was only one other gentleman there. And he and I manned the phones that entire morning. He took the [INAUDIBLE] down. And he was able to get in. And I don't recall whether we-- also, sometimes, we had to be in charge of traveling or making sure people would be coming in for interviews for jobs from colleges and so forth.
And sometimes, I would have to get all of their folders together and take them to see Mr. So-and-so for an interview. So I had a wealth of experience there in terms of my training. So when I left there and started teaching, I felt like I knew what business was like because they allowed me to do that.
And I got to meet-- I even got to work on the executive role for one of the vice presidents one morning for the Treasury Department. And it's not like it is now. But, as they say, back in the day, the third floor was where all of the top-level executives worked. And it's very quiet.
And if you went down there, you were supposed to act a certain way and talk a certain way. And the secretaries were all very, very-- most of them were older women, very staid. And my boss, the most immediate boss was middle management. And she would call his office for her boss who was the treasurer. And her classic question was, is he not there? [LAUGHS]
And am I allowed to use names? I better not. I don't know if he's still alive. I better not use his name. But and I had a classic response that he told me to give her. And which I did. But it was so funny because you felt like you were walking to the Queen's office when you saw her because he treated her as if she was the boss, even though she was just the secretary.
But she was the secretary to the boss. And that was really, really, really funny. And the other secretaries were very, very, very helpful, very understanding. And I'm always very thankful to Mr. Simcox And whenever he would see me when I would come back years after I had left Fenn, Carolyn! Carolyn, Carolyn. I love Mr. Simcox. He had that beautiful, bright smile.
And he was so really helpful to me. And I'm sure he did so for other students too. Yes. Yes, indeed. We talk about the professors. We talk about the people, the other professionals who were there to help us. But one thing that sticks in my mind is-- I don't want to use the word "little people"-- but the people sometimes that we ignore as people.
And there was a receptionist who ran the telephone. She was crippled. She walked with a limp. And I spent a lot of hours here because I could not always go home and study when you've got a house full of siblings. And so a lot of studying was either done over there in the ladies' lounge or in the library.
And this was the year that was-- I don't remember ever going to a homecoming. And you know how they had the homecoming pictures all spread around? She walked in one-- I don't know. Maybe she thought I was sad. Maybe I was sad. And she walked into the room. And she said, you know, you're just as pretty as any picture that's down there.
And I said, well, thank you. Thank you. And I'll never forget her for that because-- I'll never forget her. I'll never forget it.
A funnier story is the lady that cleaned [LAUGHS] the lavatories. I don't know if you remember. She was-- oh, she was, you thought she ran the building. She was a Black lady. But one day, we were in the lounge. And I was using the toilet facilities. And there was a sign on the door, out of order.
She said, who put this sign up here? It's not an out of order. If was out of order, I would've put it up there. There was a man in there. He burst out and went in there, came running out. And I just had so much respect for her after that.
She knew her job. And she did it. And she did it well. She didn't interfere with anybody else. But she knew what she was supposed to do. And she knew what was supposed to be happening there. And being right up off the-- I don't know how that sign got on the door. But being right there on the corner, anybody can easily walk up those stairs.
SPEAKER 2: The old tower.
CAROLYN THOMAS: Yeah, the old tower building. And she chased him out.
[LAUGHTER]
SPEAKER 2: Yeah, just the whole staff that was here--
CAROLYN THOMAS: Yeah.
SPEAKER 2: Yeah.
CAROLYN THOMAS: Even the elevator operators.
SPEAKER 2: Oh, yes. [INAUDIBLE]
CAROLYN THOMAS: Yeah. And I can't remember the first woman that was dean of women's. But I do remember the second person, Dean McKay.
SPEAKER 2: Yes.
CAROLYN THOMAS: Yes. Yes. Yes. She was such a lovely person. When they built that snack area over there at the tower, right off the third and fourth floor, she was walking through one day. And this has happened to me. So I can empathize with her now. I felt sorry for her then.
But now that I've gotten older-- all of a sudden, she was just down on the floor. She just fell. And she got back up just as quickly. And so someone says, are you hurt? Are you OK? She says, only my dignity is hurt.
[LAUGHTER]
And I said, oh, what a classic way to respond to something. She wouldn't have let him see. And just, as they call it, a sidebar, my dad was at a gas station one day. And he fell. And he said, he jumped up. I said, daddy, what did you do? He says, I looked around and made sure nobody saw me fall.
[LAUGHTER]
So I said to him, your dignity wasn't hurt? He said, no, my dignity wasn't hurt.
[LAUGHTER]
But those are some of my memories. I don't know if you have any more questions. I know I've been rambling so.
SPEAKER 2: Oh, no. Just wonderful memories.
CAROLYN THOMAS: Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER 2: You did your student teaching senior year then. You did your student teaching.
CAROLYN THOMAS: Oh, I did a co-op. Then I student taught.
SPEAKER 2: What school [INAUDIBLE]?
CAROLYN THOMAS: My whole life has been at John Adams.
SPEAKER 2: Interesting. [LAUGHS]
CAROLYN THOMAS: I graduated in '59. I came back in January of '64 as a co-op student. Dr. Sampson assigned me to John Adams as a student teacher. I went down for an interview. I had no idea where they would send me because, at that time, you could probably count the number of Black business teachers, maybe, on one hand in the entire system.
So I went down. And I can't think of his name, starts with an I, Isman or something like that, in personnel. You know how they ask you these leading questions? And you're wondering, why is he asking me that? And so he said, where would you like to teach? And I said, well, I'd like to teach at John Adams.
He had already assigned me to John Adams.
[LAUGHTER]
SPEAKER 2: You were going there.
CAROLYN THOMAS: Yeah.
SPEAKER 2: You're going back home.
CAROLYN THOMAS: Yeah. Because Dr. Sampson came out to see me. I think Miss Bloomquist came once. And the teacher that was my supervising teacher was also my teacher when I was in high school. And she became my department chairman and then my supervisor, Ray Hayes. And she was the kind of person that-- well, she had taught all over the world.
She taught in Hawaii because I guess her husband had been in the Armed Services. She was the kind of teacher that, when she walked in the room, you knew you-- well, that was back when they had bell work. I don't know if they do bell work anymore.
[LAUGHTER]
CAROLYN THOMAS: But you had knew you had either a spelling test if it was in shorthand. Or you had 10 words that you had to transcribe. Or you had, if it was an advanced class, you had maybe a five-minute speed spurt. And you had the stopwatch. And she wore these high-high heels when I was a student.
But it wasn't like that. It looked like she aged over the time that I left as a student and came back. [LAUGHS] But she was, oh, an excellent teacher, excellent supervisor. Whatever she put her hand to, you knew it was going to go. It was going to work. And when she left, she left because she was in an accident. And someone made the comment that she wasn't the supervisor. She was the assistant supervisor.
And there were maybe two or three of them. And there's always one that is always there and always doing the work that has to be done. And one lady said, gee. She was referring to the supervisor Mr. Butcher. It's like losing your right and your left arm when she left. Because she sort of kept the department together.
It was so cohesive. Whenever something was done, you knew it was going to be right. And when she came out, I would say to the ladies-- because I became department chairman about four or five years after I started teaching.
SPEAKER 2: [INAUDIBLE]
CAROLYN THOMAS: I was thinking, one of the youngest department chairmen--
SPEAKER 2: Yes.
CAROLYN THOMAS: --in the system. And I would say, now, Mrs. Hayes is coming out here. We must have things correct. We must have things correct. And I think they got kind of upset with me and Mrs. Hayes. Said, well, Mrs. Hayes is not the last word in business training. I said, well, you may not think so. But I do. And she's well respected. She's well respected everywhere in the system, in the business community, and so is Mr. Butcher.
And I just wanted our department to be the best. And when I took over, I think I had 16 or 17 people in the department that I was in charge of. But, of course, as the population decreased in the school system, the need for teachers decreased. And I don't know. They may have-- and todays when I go, I still sub periodically.
And when I go in and sub, you may have maybe three or four. That's a large department now.
SPEAKER 2: In the business [INAUDIBLE]
CAROLYN THOMAS: Within a building, from building to building. Because the focus has changed, as you know. As they say, the pendulum swings all the time. Now they need people. But, of course, with the internet and PCs, the way you approach the training is so much different now. It starts at a much earlier time.
SPEAKER 2: Mm-hmm.
CAROLYN THOMAS: And the things that they need to know-- I was telling my brother. I said, I have an old-- you know, you think of equipment as something that you can keep for a period of time. But my computer is so old. I can't do half of the stuff that I need to be able to do in my home right now. And I was at the point where it was almost time for me to leave when all of that started back in the '90s.
So but they've changed. It's changed so much.
SPEAKER 2: With the computers?
CAROLYN THOMAS: Yeah. Yeah, the whole idea of training. I would almost have to go back to school because with being a caregiver, I wasn't able to do all of that. And I wanted to take classes. I wanted to ask her before she left if they have classes for senior citizens. I know they do at Tri-C where you can come in and just take classes. Because I think, to me, my effort now is to try and keep my mind sharp.
[LAUGHTER]
And to be able to get around and to walk and to do all the things that you need to do in order to function today. But I don't play volleyball anymore.
[LAUGHTER]
SPEAKER 2: Yeah. Yeah. But in addition to being the head of the business department at John Adams, you've also been active in other community organizations. [INAUDIBLE]
CAROLYN THOMAS: Yeah. I was in charge of staff development at the school. That's something all schools have had. And I did that for a while. And I worked with Career Beginnings through Case Western Reserve. And it is now at the Urban League with Marsha Mockabee She has that.
It started at Case Western in the '80s. And then it stayed around for quite a while. Dr. Abramovich, who's an instructor in social studies at-- not social studies, social work-- at Case Western Reserve, he started the program. And it was at, like, five or six high schools where you had maybe three to four teachers. And each teacher had 10 students.
And we worked with those students all year round. We made sure they were coming to school. We took them on workshops. They provided an opportunity for them to travel to universities during the summer, so they could gain some insight about that. And you visited their home and got to know their parents, checked their report cards to make sure that their grades were being kept up.
And we took them on field trips probably once a month. And they had to check in with you to make sure everything-- and these were not necessarily the students that you would-- the brighter-- I don't want to use that term, but the students that were advanced-placement students, just for the lack of a better term.
It could have been students that appeared to have potential but were not working up to their potential. There might have been a C student who could be doing better. And one of the efforts that they wanted, they had another component where they had professional staff who were looking for part-time jobs for those students that they could work during the summer. So it was a wonderful program. And it was funded.
And, like so many other programs, you never knew from one year to the next whether the funding was going to go. And it was set, I think it was, three schools on the east side and three schools on the west side. And good program, wonderful program.
SPEAKER 2: It is still going [INAUDIBLE]?
CAROLYN THOMAS: I don't know if it's called Career Beginnings. But it's something like that. Marsha Mockabee is the-- I think they may have even moved it down to another level, to maybe the middle school to do some things there because you really need to start early to get them on the right track so that they don't get off.
They had it at James Ford Rhodes, Lincoln West. I want to say West Tech. I'm not sure. I can't remember. John Adams, Glenville East, East Tech, and John F. Kennedy. So there were more than just the-- they increased it.
And sometimes, it went down. And sometimes, it went up, you know, depending on what the needs were. But that was a wonderful program. And I was in that program until the last year. And my last year I taught at James Ford Rhodes. And, of course, somebody else already had the slot. But I enjoyed that very much.
SPEAKER 2: Yeah. [INAUDIBLE]
CAROLYN THOMAS: Yeah.
SPEAKER 2: Important program.
CAROLYN THOMAS: Mm-hmm. Very, very, very.
SPEAKER 2: [INAUDIBLE]
CAROLYN THOMAS: It's the kind that probably needed in every school because there's so many things that are going on in these students' lives that you have no control over. And sometimes, all they need is somebody to know that there's somebody there who has their back, as they say, somebody that they can come and talk to. The guidance counselor is there. But the guidance counselor has a role for one thing primarily.
And sometimes, you can work together with the guidance counselor if there's some area that needs to be addressed. Some were successful experiences. Some were not. But the intent and the purpose was always wonderful. And when I first started working with the program, it was with people like Dr. Abramowitz and June Taylor who started it.
Oh, East Cleveland. I forgot East Cleveland also was involved in it. So those two programs were very, very, very beneficial, I think, for the students and for the professionals involved because you got a chance to see that you wouldn't normally see. And you got to meet kids. I got to meet kids that I wouldn't normally have because they were not necessarily business students. A lot of young men were in the program. One young man came back to me.
I came back to the building one day. And he asked me a question. And you never know what students are noticing. You never know what they're looking at. He said, do you still carry that little, black notebook you had? I said, what black notebook? He said, you had that little, black notebook. And you had it all divided up into sections. And when you would turn to a certain section when you-- because I had him in a typing class at that time.
And I think that year, for some reason I had to also have a homeroom because I was lucky. For years I never had a homeroom.
[LAUGHTER]
And then when things got tough, they made me have a homeroom. They said I had to have my own room so. And I think what he was talking about is that I went through a period in the '80s where I was very active in church, active with career things, staff development, department chairman, coordinator. You know, I had all these things going on. And I had heard this man on the radio say that he was active.
And he had an attaché case for every group he worked on. And whatever worked for that particular project, you put it in there. Well, I had a bag for everything. And I had a table behind my desk. And I would put stuff in the bag. And I had the notebook divided up like that so that I could keep track of what needed to be done.
But you know, I don't know about you. But I guess when you're in your-- I was in my 40s then. And I guess I thought I could do all of that. And it's like, this is your last desperate act to try and show what you can do and what you want to do. And that's what I was trying to do, now that I look back. I didn't know it then. I do remember. And I was active in a sorority, all of that. I was financial secretary, all these things going on.
And I remember a sorority sister saying to me, you'll stop. I said, what do you mean, you'll stop? She says, I used to do that too. She says, when you hit your 50s, something will kick in.
[LAUGHTER]
[INAUDIBLE]. No, I can't do all of this anymore. And she was right. You know. 50 kicked in. And I decided to grow up because, just before I turned 50, all those years I had been living in an apartment. My relatives had been saying, why are you paying all that rent? Why don't you buy a house?
And I finally bought a house in my late 40s.
SPEAKER 2: [INAUDIBLE]
CAROLYN THOMAS: And I remember an uncle saying to me-- he called me one day. And he has passed and like, oh, [INAUDIBLE] one uncle that-- he had a famous statement. You knew when he was serious. He said, this is your uncle talking now.
[LAUGHTER]
Why don't you decide to do something besides give the rent checks? You've bought, you've paid for so many houses, anyway, with the rent check. So then we can do a little something to help you if there's nothing more than to help you move in. So I did do that in the late 40s and began to address the issues of really looking at the end of the tunnel.
And I think the only regret-- I don't regret it now. But I did then-- is the fact that I never got married. But I did fill my life with activities and things and people that were wonderful. My church was wonderful. The activities that I felt in the church were just absolutely wonderful. And coming from a Christian perspective, I have two siblings that are ministers.
I have, I don't know, some 13, 14 ministers in my family overall throughout the country. So everyone thought, well, one day, you'll probably become a minister too. I said, I don't think so. I really don't think so because I don't feel that that's my calling. I like doing missionary work because my dad's mom did missionary work.
And that's what I spent a lot of time doing, those kinds of things. And I think the work that I did with Career Beginnings is sort of like an extension of missionary work because you're doing things for people and helping people and going that extra mile and enjoying it because I like to see people who are happy and who are successful.
And when they come back and tell you and say things, how thankful. Or say things that you didn't even know. Or on a few occasions, you may hear them say something negative to you that you may have said or done and you didn't know that you'd said it or did. One young lady sent a note by her sister. She said, you said this to me when I was in your class. And I want you to know that I did accomplish something.
And I don't remember what it was because sometimes, we all say things that we're sorry for. And we don't always realize. You never know how [INAUDIBLE] the words that are coming out of your mouth and how they're going to affect someone. But I said to her sister, I'm so glad that if it was negative it was from the head and not the heart.
And I'm glad that she was able to take whatever it is or whatever it was that I said and take something positive out of it because she had a career in the Armed Services, which she has done very, very well apparently. So whatever it is, that's good.
SPEAKER 2: [INAUDIBLE]
CAROLYN THOMAS: Yes.
SPEAKER 2: [INAUDIBLE]
CAROLYN THOMAS: Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER 2: [INAUDIBLE]
CAROLYN THOMAS: Yes. I think about it now more often. And [INAUDIBLE]. What if I had come along [INAUDIBLE]? I would take [INAUDIBLE] in the '80s when it really took off in terms of I might not have had the opportunity. And I did have opportunities. But I passed them off. Because they called me at least two times from Diamond to come back and work for them.
And I did not [INAUDIBLE].
I did not know that he got the job at DIamond [INAUDIBLE] told them that he's my brother. I said, I didn't know that. He said, of course. I said, nobody ever called andsaid anything.
[INAUDIBLE]. But he had experienced a positive experience [INAUDIBLE] And when I told him how many times I turned them down [INAUDIBLE]. The second time, I think I would have ventured out. But I was afraid they were going to hire me to be a secretary. And I didn't want to be a secretary. At that point I knew that there was something other than being-- not that there's anything being a secretary.
But I had done enough things with management. They had allowed me to do enough things. [INAUDIBLE] I can do something [INAUDIBLE].
And another thing to my own detriment, I am very rigid when it comes to change. But I don't take chances like other people. I think that may be a generational thing. My brother has been I don't know how many places not knowing where he was going to wind up. [INAUDIBLE]
And [INAUDIBLE] my nieces she went to South America last year to present a paper. She's been out to Chicago [INAUDIBLE]. One summer, she decided she wanted to take a class in Switzerland. She didn't know she's going to get the money. But she just did it.
And she's not rich. And I told her, I know you're at the point where it's time for you to start thinking about retirement [INAUDIBLE]. You're in your 40s. You think you got a lot of time. But it's coming to you very quickly.
And I know [INAUDIBLE].
You high school teachers make more money than college professors. And I said, I know that you're teaching [INAUDIBLE].
But you're not making any money. She says, no, I'm not. And then in places like New York on the East Coast, Washington D.C. [INAUDIBLE].
And I thought about my dad when he'd go out of town. He'd say, let's get back [INAUDIBLE].
[LAUGHTER]
SPEAKER 2: [INAUDIBLE]
CAROLYN THOMAS: Yes. [INAUDIBLE]
[LAUGHTER]
[INAUDIBLE] It was so funny. And, sure enough, [INAUDIBLE].
We drove. We got there. We [INAUDIBLE] all day looking for this one [INAUDIBLE] because we wanted [INAUDIBLE] with these people. [INAUDIBLE].
[LAUGHTER]
[INAUDIBLE]
CAROLYN THOMAS: She was speaking out of her experience [INAUDIBLE] culture at the time and because there were no [INAUDIBLE]. And I tried to write up about him and his wife [INAUDIBLE].
I don't know if it was flower. And I had spelled it F-L-O-U-R. And it should have been F-L-O-W-E-R. It had been there for a long time, for the longest time. Says, who spell that word like that?
[LAUGHTER]
And my mom very quietly said, she's like, I think you did.
[LAUGHTER]
My brother and I, since we always credit my mom's family, especially my mom, she didn't have a college education. But she is just one of the smartest people I knew. She's like Bill Clinton. I heard Bill Clinton say that his people didn't go to college, but they're bright people. But that's the kind of people my mother comes from.
But she never-- she wouldn't argue. She would say, you learn so much more if you'd just listen and just keep your mouth shut. Yes, and my dad said his mom used to say-- what is it? Oh, I can't get it now. "A wise tongue carries"-- I can't get it. Oh God, I've forgotten what it was that she used to say. But it was all about keeping your mouth closed and just listening.
"A wise head carries a steel tongue." And in other words, when they put that bit in the horse's mouth, it was to keep that from biting down on it. And she would have all these little expression. And in the book of James, "Bridle thy tongue." And mama's good, she said, just listen. And when you have people want to tell you things, sometimes you get to hear a lot more and learn a lot more just by listening.
And so she would tell my dad, his name was Jim, you're talking too much. I told you, just be quiet. You just talk too much. And he says-- before he passed he'd say to me, he says, you get more like your mom every day, because I said, daddy, daddy, that's enough. That's enough, just stop. He says, you get more like your mama every day.
And I just, well, mama was right, because she sort of kept the family together. And I guess every family has one somebody that does that. And she was-- she was Irish in our family.
SPEAKER 2: [INAUDIBLE]
CAROLYN THOMAS: Yeah, excuse me?
SPEAKER 2: Wonderful person [INAUDIBLE].
CAROLYN THOMAS: Yeah, I didn't really-- I talked more than I thought I was going to. I thought you're going to have a set of questions.
[LAUGHTER]
SPEAKER 1: No, no. Thank you, Carolyn.
CAROLYN THOMAS: Thank you.
SPEAKER 2: [INAUDIBLE], early '60s.
CAROLYN THOMAS: Now, who asked you yours?
SPEAKER 1: Are we going to just chat now for a minute? Or we can just chat now.
SPEAKER 2: Just want to chat for a minute?
CAROLYN THOMAS: OK.
SPEAKER 1: You want to turn it off?
SPEAKER 2: No, because I don't want--
