Streaming Media in Cleveland Memory:
The Gay 90's with Buck Harris

Transcript

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00:00:24 [Pamela Stanley’s “Coming Out of Hiding” Plays]

I’m comin’ out of hidin’. I’m comin’ out of hidin’. I’m comin’ out of hidin’...

00:00:36-00:01:01 Buck Harris

All right, we're back in this, the second hour of The Gay 90’s.Aand we're going to be taking a sort of a stroll down memory lane for some of you, perhaps, but we're going to be- joining us very shortly, we're doing the phone hookup right now, is Frank Kameny, who was the founder of the Washington Mattachine Society and, has been involved in the gay, lesbian and civil rights movement, really, well for the last 25 years, so we're going to find out more. Frank, are you with us now? 

00:01:02 Frank Kameny

Yes I am, and it’s for over 30 years.

00:01:04 Buck Harris

Over 30 pardon me!

00:01:06 Frank Kameny

[laughs]

00:01:08 Buck Harris

But, you should be retired, sitting down in some place in Florida, knitting Afghans and- and- and that sort of thing. You're now- now, may I divulge your age here on the air?

00:01:16 Frank Kameny

Yes, I'm 68, almost 69.

00:01:18  Buck Haris

60 almost 60-. When will you be 69?

00:01:22 Frank Kameny.

In May.

00:01:23 Buck Harris

In May, well an- an early Happy Birthday.

00:01:24 Frank Kameny

Thank you.

00:01:26 Buck Harris

But- but I was in awe of you. Actually, I was- we spoke on the phone earlier today, and I- I met you back in about, I think it was maybe 1969 or 1970, when I was a student in Washington DC.

00:01:37 Frank Kameny

Mm-hmm. Where at?

00:01:38 Buck Harris

Um, I was going to Antioch at the time.

00:01:40 Frank Kameny

Oh! Yes, yes, yes, I remember it well, but they were there for a while.

00:01:45 Buck Harris

And they were having a fundraiser. And- and for me that was I- I was still in hiding. I was- I would- my closet door would open on weekends and that was about the extent of it. But then I ultimately ended up working at the Georgetown Bar and Grill.

00:01:57 Frank Kameny

Ah, yes, that's no longer there.

00:01:59 Buck Harris

As in that, they tore down paradise and put up a parking lot I’m afraid. That's some sort of Seuss- or foof- foofy French restaurant now, isn't it?

00:02:07 Frank Kameny

I don't know what it is, I avoid Georgetown as the plague. I never go to Georgetown if I can help it, and so I don't know what's there now.

00:02:14 Buck Harris

Yeah, well for our listening audience, give us a little bit of your history. You know the whole- the whole how- how you came out, and all that kind of stuff. I want to hear it all.

00:02:27 Frank Kameny

Well alright, I, er... I... got my PhD in 1956 and came- took a job in Washington, at Georgetown University.

00:02:36 Buck Harris

Your PhD was in astronomy?

00:02:36 Frank Kameny

In astronomy from Harvard University.

00:02:39 Buck Harris

Yeah?

00:02:40-00:02:54 Frank Kameny

And a year later I shifted over to, well, the- a good opening at an agency with a government- a federal government agency, which was then called the Army Map Service, it's currently called the Defense Mapping Agency.

00:02:44 [Sound of a pop-tab can being opened]

00:02:55 Frank Kameny

And in those days, the exclusion of gays from the US Federal civil service was quite as complete and quite as rigidly pursued, and nastily pursued, as the exclusion of gays from the military still is-

00:03:13 Buck Harris

Yes.

00:03:13 Frank Kameny

And so when you first joined the civil service that did an investigation and they called me in one day and said ‘We have information that we just believe that you're homosexual, do you have anything to say?’ And I said, ‘What's your information? In any case, it's none of your business.’ And things proceeded from there.

00:03:34 Frank Kameny

I pursued the case, I was- I fought it all the way up to the Supreme Court, for which I wrote my own petition. And, given the climate of the times, when that failed, uh, after a bit, I'd become familiar with what little of a Gay Movement there was in those days, there were five or six gay organizations in the whole country.

00:03:55 Buck Harris

And most of those were West Coast, I presume.

00:03:57 Frank Kameny

One was in New York. And they- I felt time had come for something here in Washington. They didn't quite suit my style and personality, they were very bland, and I say this not critically, but it was a very different era.

00:04:12 Buck Harris

Yeah.

00:04:13 Frank Kameny

They were defens- defensive planned, apologetic, and I am not. 

00:04:19 Buck Harris

And- and most never used their real names, I mean, most people involved in them.

00:04:22 Frank Kameny

Uh, yes, that’s right. And so, anyway, so we founded a group here in Washington, and we labeled ourselves, and accurately so, as ‘militant’ and ‘activist’. And those were two dirty words in the movement in those days. And we ran from there and proceeded onward, and that- that was the beginning.

00:04:47 Frank Kameny

And those days, since nobody else was really doing anything and nobody else had done anything, we could write our own agenda and go out and do it. It was an exciting, stimulating time to be working in this kind of thing and we broke, uh, open new roads in every direction. And we're at the cutting edge of the movement, such as it was, for the next several years.

00:05:15 Frank Kameny

After which things gradually, Uh, the movement gradually increased, although even from the end of the 60s there wasn’t that all much of a gay movement.

00:05:25 Buck Harris

Yeah, I- I found it interesting, Eric Marcus has certainly donated a chapter to you in his book “Making Gay History” and- and the story about the FBI-

00:05:33 Frank Kameny

Oh yes. 

00:05:34 Buck Harris

Your newspaper- I mean, your organization generated a newspaper that went out somewhat irregularly, but on- on the list was at the time president- who was the president at the time, Hoover?

00:05:44-00:05:48 Frank Kameny

Well, no no no no no.

00:05:45 Buck Harris

Not Hoover, I mean, Hoover was the FBI.

00:05:49 Frank Kameny

Who was president? Kennedy! Kennedy was President of the United States. But we put up much of Congress, other public officials, the Cabinet and- and judges, some judges and justices on our mailing list and some other selected officials, including J. Edgar.

00:06:05 Frank Kameny

And he didn't like that, and, uh, so anyway, the story is all there.

00:06:11 Buck Harris

Yeah, so- so- So they asked that they be removed from the list and you-.

00:06:14 Frank Kameny

Yes, and we told them that we would remove J Edgar from our list if he would remove us from his list.

00:06:19 Buck Harris

Because in fact-

00:06:19 Frank Kameny

That ended it. And he remained on our list until the day he died.

00:06:20 Buck Harris

Yeah, because they didn't take you-

00:06:26 Buck Harris

I mean they didn't- 

00:06:26 Frank Kameny

That's right.

00:06:26 Buck Harris

Yeah. But- And isn’t that ironic that we find out after J. Edgar Hoover's death that- that he probably should have been a member of your organization.

00:06:35 Frank Kameny

Of course, in the, in the, within the community, within our community, in those days, it was widely rumored, with considerable fill-in of detail, that J. Edgar was gay, and I mean it was not a deep dark secret, uh, within, within-

00:06:55 Buck Harris

Washington’s gay circles?

00:06:56 Frank Kameny

Yes, and uh, elsewhere, as well, yes.

00:06:59 Buck Harris

But- but your group chose not to out him?

00:07:02 Frank Kameny

Well, for uh- outing wasn't being done in those days. All we had was rumor and gossip, we certainly had no hard facts-

00:07:09 Buck Harris

Uh-uh.

00:07:10 Frank Kameny

-So, and we had other things to do.

00:07:13 Buck Harris

So what- what- describe a little bit what like, what social life was like back in the, you know, 30 years ago.

00:07:20 Frank Kameny

Well, I can only answer that in terms of the local scene in Washington. Keep in mind, no two cities were the same.

00:07:29 Buck Harris

Yeah.

00:07:30 Frank Kameny

For example, in Washington in those days we did not have any particular repression of gay bars. In New York they did. The gay bars were impossible to operate for a period of time just around then, so then each city was very different.

00:07:43 Buck Harris

Although when I worked at the Georgetown Bar and Grill, on the laws, although it was never enforced at that time, 'cause that was late 60s early 70s-

00:07:52 Frank Kameny

Yes.

00:07:52 Buck Harris

-there was a law that saying that you could not carry a drink in a bar.

00:07:54 Frank Kameny

Yes, well, that went in, in Washington in general, that was not specifically gay-directed, at the end of Prohibition in 1934, which is when all of the liquor laws in the country were first redrafted. Obviously in all the years since they've been modernized in many places.

00:08:11 Frank Kameny

But at that time, the congressional bit of rhetoric was that ‘We don't want to bring back the old-time saloon.’ So there wasn't- as a matter of legal technicality, there was no such thing in Washington for the next 30 years or 40 years- 50 years! There was no such thing as a bar, there were only restaurants with liquor licenses. And obviously if you go into a restaurant, you’re going in to eat and eat, and normally, you sit down when you're eating, and they pursued it from there in formulating the whole.

00:08:38 Buck Harris

Uh-huh.

00:08:39 Frank Kameny 

So you had to be seated to be served, and if you wanted to move to another table, you moved yourself and the waiter or waitress moved your drink.

00:08:48 Buck Harris

So, yeah, uh-

00:08:49 Frank Kameny

And that remained in effect until they re-modernized the ABC laws here in Washington in 1986, although they- they may have made some changes and had abandoned that pretty much in the middle 70’s. 

00:09:04 Buck Harris

OK-

00:09:04 Frank Kameny

But that- that sort of set an atmosphere in the gay bars where, you didn't move around. You sat down at tables and booths and you stayed there.

00:09:13 Buck Harris

Yeah, so there wasn’t much cruising. Well at least not a lot of-

00:09:20 Frank Kameny

Not a lot of cruising- well there’s always cruising, And human ingenuity is boundless, so you simply adopted other techniques.

00:09:20-00:09:24 Buck Harris

Yeah... yeah...

00:09:24 Buck Harris

At the time there seemed to be there was- there was The Daughters of Bilitis.

00:09:29 Frank Kameny

At the time that we were founded, there were there were basically three organiza- gay organizations in the country, two of which had some chapters. One was the Mattachine Society, out group in Washington, though they took that name because it was one of the names floating in the air was completely independent of the National Mattachine, which had which was situated in San Francisco- headquarters in San Francisco, chapters in some other cities, including New York.

00:09:59 Fran Kameny

And- and some others. The Daughters of Bili- that was founded at the beginning of the modern gay movement, which was 1951. Then there- there was an organization called One Incorporated which still exists in Los Angeles. And then there was the Daughters of Bilitis, which was a women’s group which was founded in the mid 1950s and did have several chapters.

00:10:24

That was the entire gay movement at the beginning of the 60s, some five or six organizations, approximately, and even at the time of Stonewall, in 1969, there were only 50-to-60 gay organizations in the entire country by a year-and-a-half to two years later that had- that was up to 2500.

00:10:41 Buck Harris

Huh. All right, I- I- we need to take a commercial break here. We'll be right back, and this is Frank Kameny, the founder of the Washington DC chapter of the Mattachine Society and- and just a- a gay historical figure. So, we'll be back in a moment.

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00:11:38 Buck Harris

In in the next issue, you'll find a guide for gay men in the military, with a special article on how to survive the rigors of showering in the barracks called ‘Don't Ask, Don't Swell’. Better Homos and Gardens is available at your local bookstore.

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00:12:48 Buck Harris

-back on the air? What's got- Has something happened to the board?

00:12:52 Frank Kameny

Hello?

00:12:53 Buck Harris

OK, yes, we're back.

00:12:54 Frank Kameny

Alright.

00:12:55 Buck Harris

Alright.

00:12:56 Frank Kameny

Let me say that- something I did want to mention. As I had indicated earlier, the er- the- the organizations that existed at that time, certainly when we- we got going here in Washington, as I said earlier, were sort of apologetic, defensive.

00:13:12 Frank Kameny

They had internalized an enormous amount of the negativism about homosexuality, which is unfortunately still internalized by many gay people.

00:13:20 Buck Harris

Mm-hmm.

00:13:21 Fank Kameny

And, as the 60s progressed, I felt there was a need- you never heard a favorable word said about homosexuality in any context whatever. Psychiatrists and psychoanalysts said we were sick, the law said we were criminals, the theologians said we were sinners.

00:13:37 Frank Kameny

You never heard anything to counter any of that at all.

00:13:38 Buck Harris

Mm-hmm.

00:13:40

And I felt that something needed to be done to counter that. So, one of the things that I am most proud of in- in the whole 30 odd years, in 1968 I coined the slogan ‘Gay Is Good’.

00:13:56 Buck Harris

Huh.

00:13:57 Frank Kameny

Which is, uh, in a- in a direct effort- in parallel with the slogan which was also just coming into popularity at the same time and for very simple reasons ‘Black is Beautiful’.

00:14:08 Buck Harris

And so ‘Gay Is Good’, it fits nicely on a button. 

00:14:09 Frank Kameny

Yes, yes.

00:14:13 Buck Harris

But, were many people willing to where the buttons?

00:14:15 Frank Kameny

Uh.... Gradually, yes.

00:14:18 Buck Harris

Yeah.

00:14:19

But keep in mind that again, Stonewall was only a year away, and of course after that the whole atmosphere changed very-very much.

00:14:25 Buck Harris

Do you realize what those buttons would sell for today to some collector?

00:14:27 Frank Kameny

[Laughs] I have them here.

00:14:28 Buck Harris

Alright, well let’s talk.

00:14:30 Frank Kameny

And we- but we were moving into things, we were originated picketing and demonstrating by gay people in 1965 at various places in Washington, the White House and elsewhere. And things were heating up as that whole decade moved ahead.

00:14:45 Buck Harris

Yeah. What was the cooperation or the, was there any between the lesbian and gay male community?

00:14:51 Frank Kameny

Uh, there- there were no real barriers. Certainly, Mattachine had a, a-a, it was more male than female. But it had a quite a number of lesbians in it and very much part of the whole central group of the core group of activists. And we- we- we worked in very-very close cooperation on things that- it didn't rise to the surface as a significant factor.

00:15:21 Buck Harris

What- what, how about in Washington, has certainly has a large African American population. How about involvement of the African American community?

00:15:28 Frank Kameny

Now there, we, keep in mind again this was a period of very-very-very rapid change societally. The Civil Rights Wars hadn't been enacted, at least in the first several years that we were in existence. Brown versus Board of Education was still very-very-very recent.

00:15:49 Frank Kameny

Washington had- had a history of very-very intensively enforced segregation in prior years, which left its legacy. So it was a very-very different kind of an era, in that as well, from the present.

00:16:06 Frank Kameny

There were black gay bars. And we- we had a few black members, we made a concerted affirmative outreach to try to bring people in without terribly- not- not with zero success, but not with terribly much success, unfortunately.

00:16:26 Buck Harris

Uh-huh. What do you think is happening now in terms of the- the, the- the movement overall, where- where has it gone since, since you've been involved? Just sort of a decade-by, decade-by-decade account, if you can see sort of how the movement has changed.

00:16:41 Frank Kameny

Yah. Well, when, when we started, and as we gradually got going, uh, we have a number of very well defined obstacles to overcome. Some of them took a lot of time. It took me 18 years or to force the Civil Service Commission to turn around, it took us 10 years to get the er- the American Psychiatric Association to turn around, and so on.

00:17:07 Frank Kameny

There are a lot of long-term battles, and shorter-term battles. The whole concept of Gay Rights laws first appeared on scene in 1972 in East Lansing, Michigan, passed the first Gay Rights law in the country. And others followed.

00:17:23 Buck Harris

Can I interrupt you? Do you think it is wise though, for us to refer to those as ‘Gay Rights laws’?

00:17:27 Frank Kameny

Yes. Given, I realize the rhetoric this- we- we- we can address that separately farther on. 

00:17:35 Buck Harris

OK.

00:17:36 Frank Kameny

No, I know, I know what you’re getting at-

00:17:38 Buck Harris

OK.

00:17:39 Frank Kameny

But in terms of the the rhetoric of religious right, now.  But we'll come- we can come back to that later. But anyway, so, uh, but er...

00:17:52 Buck Harris

So Lansing, Michigan...?

00:17:53 Frank Kameny

Yes! And others followed, Washington, many other places. And it was interesting in retrospect that, for an issue which was contentious, uh, controverted heavily, emotionally laden in the long run, we won every single battle. We didn't lose any.

00:18:15 Frank Kameny

All through 60’s, and essentially through most of the 70’s, the opposition simply had not got their act together.

00:18:24 Buck Harris

Uh-huh.

00:18:25 Frank Kameny

Obviously that was too good to remain true forever, and the tide began to change significantly, or visibly, in 1977 with the infamous Anita Bryant in Florida.

00:18:38 Buck Harris

Yes.

00:18:41 Frank Kameny

And then the- the, Jerry Falwell and, well, his immoral moral majority in the beginning of the 80’s. And others. And then with a conservative White House for, for the whole decade. And- and then finally, with the collapse of communism, requiring them to find the opposition- to find another scapegoat if they were going to keep going.

00:19:11 Buck Harris

Yeah.

00:19:12 Frank Kameny

The battle has gradually intensified. So that the road has become more steeply uphill, more littered with obstacles there are, there have been battles that we've lost.

00:19:25 Frank Kameny

Nevertheless, in the broad, and this is the thing, if you really look at what's going on, we are, we have moved the tide, the tide is moving with us. The far-right is very conscious that the culture is changing and the culture is changing in our favor. 

00:19:44 Frank Kameny

And it terrifies them, and that is the reason for the intensity of their reaction against us, and they will lose, ultimately, as many er... We may lose a lot of the brush fire skirmishes.

00:19:56 Buck Harris

Yes.

00:19:56 Frank Kameny

We will- We will win the war. And we are winning it.

00:20:00 Buck Harris

Don't you think what that- what also coincided, is in the early 80s, of course, AIDS began to surface.

00:20:07 Frank Kameny

Yes, yes.

00:20:08 Buck Harris

And- and by the mid 80’s, it was certainly pandemic in- in the major gay metropolises, and- and that certainly did take away a lot of the energy. Not only, not only lives, but the- the energy of our community was spent on- on just really responding to the AIDS crisis.

00:20:21 Frank Kameny

And individual people, yes. And that of course is an unfortunate tragedy. Be- Coming out of a scientific background, I have absolute confidence that, erm, medical research will ultimately defeat AIDS.

00:20:36 Frank Kameny

When that will happen, I don't know, obviously, it can't happen too soon.

00:20:41 Buck Harris

Yeah. But- but I think that really zapped our energy. And- and if we put the- the civil rights agenda on the back burner and spent all of our energy fighting AIDS.

00:20:50 Frank Kameny

In many ways, a lot of us, certainly here, in Washington- What has happened here, and I expect with, er, variations in detail in almost any city, is that a large, uh, AIDS structure has grown up.

00:21:10 Buck Harris

Yeah.

00:21:11 Frank Kameny

Organizations, and people, devoting their efforts to all the various aspects of AIDS that need our attention.

00:21:18 Buck Harris

Yeah.

00:21:18 Frank Kameny

But meanwhile, others and- and myself, and quite consciously and intentionally I feel, that the battle, with respect to AIDS, is in good hands, or as good hands as it's likely to get, with people who know what they're doing better than I.

00:21:35 Frank Kameny

And so, I have consciously chosen to, allow me- quite a number of other people to remain specifically in the gay rights, civil rights er, uh, arena. And we have stayed there, so that that's one example.

00:21:51 Frank Kameny

You in Ohio got your sodomy law repealed quite a long time ago.

00:21:56 Buck Harris

Yes.

00:21:56 Frank Kameny

We have not here in Washington, that was a battle that I personally started in August of 19...63, and pushed it all through that- the- the ensuing 30 years, ultimately, I wrote the law that the City Council enacted, and we had our sodomy law repealed in this past September. 

00:22:21 Frank Kameny

And so- so that that battle is just one of quite a number that have been pursued.

00:22:26 Buck Harris

Yeah, I think one of the things I must say about AIDS, though, is that, if nothing else occurred, good out of it. It really did sort of coalesce our community.

00:22:35 Frank Kameny

Yes, it-

00:22:36 Buck Harris

It brought out more people, I'm- I'm one of those. I came out in 1984 because of AIDS, and I think it brought a lot of people into the community. It was, you know, desperate times call for desperate measures sort of thing.

00:22:46 Frank Kameny

Yeah, AIDS provides- it- it's provided, a specific, definable sharply focused cause around which to rally.

00:22:56 Buck Harris

And certainly, the lesbian community has been strong behind us.

00:22:57 Frank Kameny

Yes, yeah.

00:22:59 Buck Harris

I'm- I'm embarrassed to say, by the way, and I'd like to get your reaction. I think if this epidemic had hit the lesbian community instead of the gay, gay male community, I don't know that we would have come to the support of the lesbian community like they have to our support.

00:23:10 Frank Kameny

It- it's hard to say. And... You may- You may be right. 

00:23:14 Buck Harris

I think we'd still be dancing disco on uh-

00:23:17 Frank Kameny

But I- I don't know that it pays to emphasize possible divisiveness, particularly divisiveness that hasn't even occurred.

00:23:26 Buck Harris

Yeah. In Ohio, we do not, by the way, while- while we do not have the sodomy law here, we- it is still legal for an employer to fire an employee simply because he finds out he or she is gay or lesbian, and- and same with housing and we don't have those protections in place.

00:23:40 Frank Kameny

Yeah, and that's something I hope the community there is working on.

00:23:43 Buck Harris

Yeah, um-

00:23:44 Frank Kameny

But we've had a strong gay rights law here in Washington, which incidentally, unlike many areas where our sexual orientation got tacked on later, it has been part of our law since it was first enacted in 1973. And I was the first openly gay appointed DC official when I was pointed to the DC Commission on Human Rights to help enforce that law in 1975 and served for seven years.

00:24:12 Buck Harris

Huh. Well, Frank, will you stay hold? We need to go to the- the gay and lesbian news and I'd like to continue in this conversation with you.

00:24:19 Frank Kameny

Fine, we'll have- will I be able to hear that over the phone? 

00:24:22 Buck Harris 

Yes you will. 

00:24:23 Frank Kameny

OK thank you. I’ll [unintelligible].

00:24:24 Buck Harris

Alright, we'll be right back with Frank Kameny. And this is the gay and lesbian news with Kevin Beanie from the Gay People's Chronicle and this is Buck Harris.

00:24:31 Buck Harris

If you want to give a call in tonight to talk with Frank, please join me. I'm enjoying myself. But tune in, call in, the number here is 578-1420.

00:24:39 [Sound clip of unknown female actress plays]

Have we got news for you! Have we got news for you!  Have we got news for you!  You’d better answer! [sound of a thump and/or explosion]

00:24:49 Kevin Beanie 

News from Cincinnati, Tim Burke, chairman of the Hamilton County Board of Elections, wants an investigation of Colorado For Family Values, which gave $390,000 to support the anti-gay amendment to the past of November. The organization provided the money to the Equal Rights Not Special Rights Coalition, which backed the amendment that voters approved to forbid the city from enacting, or enforcing, laws banning discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.

00:25:13 Kevin Beanie

It has been alleged that money from Ohio supporters of the bill was laundered through the Colorado Group to avoid financial disclosure laws. Burke said he thinks Colorado For Family Values would fall under Ohio's definition of a political action committee, and should be required to disclose funding sources.

00:25:28 Kevin Beanie

Indiana has been in the process of getting a hate crimes bill through the legislature and while the bill finally passed in the Senate, sexual minorities lost out on the vote. The Lieutenant governor had to cast the tie breaking vote on Friday following a heated debate about the bill, which provides for longer sentences for crimes based on a victim’s race, color, religion or national origin.

00:25:47 Kevin Beanie

The original bill passed by the house had included sexual orientation, but that was removed by a committee controlled by Senate Republicans, a move that was perhaps the greatest sticking point dividing lawmakers. Governor Bayh says he wanted gays and lesbians included, but says it's at least better to protect some groups. 

00:26:03 Kevin Beanie

Gay rights activists hoped to be reinstated as a part of the bill in conference committee where the measure now goes, they planned to rally yesterday outside Bayh’s home to push their cause.

00:26:13 Kevin Beanie

The Human Rights Campaign Fund surveyed the House of Representatives and found that a majority of House members have promised not to discriminate against gays and hiring and promotion. A total of 225 of the 435 members signed and returned statements to HRCF, which read ‘The sexual orientation of an individual, is not a consideration in the hiring, promoting, or terminating of an employee in my Congressional office.’ 

00:26:35 Kevin Beanie

The campaign fund sought anti-discrimination pledges from House members after a furor last year, when three Oklahoma Congressman said they would not hire gay people for their congressional staffs.

00:26:45 Kevin Beanie

A new national group, Gay and Lesbian Americans, has called for a one-week boycott of Florida Orange Juice after the Florida Citrus Commission hired conservative commentator Rush Limbaugh as the product’s pitch man.

00:26:56 Kevin Beanie

60 gay bars from Oregon to Massachusetts have already agreed to stop serving orange juice to protest Limbaugh’s $1,000,000, six-month deal with the Citrus Commission, according to the group.

00:27:05 Kevin Beanie

The March 12th through the 19th boycott recalls a national protest that forced the Commission to drop Anita Bryant, a spokeswoman in 1980, after she took a public stance against homosexuality. But, the boycott has a distinctively 90’s twist. It's being promoted through electronic bulletin boards at the computer address QueerNet.

00:27:24 Kevin Beanie

If you're looking for a way to warm up this winter, why not find someone through the personal ads and the Gay People's Chronicle? When you place a personal ad, there's no cost to you and you can reach that special someone either with a letter or through voicemail.

00:27:36 Kevin Beanie

Check out the latest edition of The Chronicle. With Ohio's largest number of personal ads for gays, men, lesbians and bisexuals. This is Kevin Beanie, editor of the Gay People’s Chronicle for the Gay 90’s.

00:27:47 Unknown Male Announcer

The Gay 90’s stinks. I have removed your station from my select button in the car. I will promote others to do the same.

00:27:54 Buck Harris

A word of caution to those of you who listen to the Gay 90’s while driving your car. Never change the dials while driving. It could end up in- [sound of tires squealing followed by a crunch of metal and glass as a car crashes] Watch out, watch out! Oh no, watch out!

00:28:05 [Michael Bolton’s “When a Man Loves a Woman” starts playing, only to be interrupted by a record scratch at 00:28:10.]

00:28:12 [Romanovsky and Philips’ “Give Me a Homosexual” plays.]

00:28:15 Buck Harris

Alright, we're back on the air with Frank Kamey, the- the mad scientist.

00:28:20 Frank Kameny

[Chuckles.]

00:28:21 Buck Harris

Frank, how you doing?

00:28:22 Frank Kameny

Alright, thanks.

00:28:24 Buck Harris

Good. We're going to go right to the phones. We have a caller, David from Ohio City. David, you’re on.

00:28:27 David

Yeah, just was wondering, with everybody so closeted at that time period, what was the day-to-day activities in gay lifestyle then?

00:28:38 Frank Kameny

Well, as far as day-to-day activities... people lived quietly, closeted lives. Certainly never told employers or- or anything at that time, because then if you are known to be gay, you always lost or didn't get the job.

00:28:59 Frank Kameny

But certainly there was an active gay social life. Bars- There were a number of bars, not- well we have quite a large number now, several- many times over what we have been. But there- there were gay bars, private parties, uh, quite a number of cruising areas things at that time, although you didn't have to watch the police until we finally got rid of them in the 70’s.

00:29:23 Frank Kameny

But, uh, but there was an active social life going on.

00:29:27 David

Were there any code words or anything used?

00:29:29 Buck Harris

Like are you a friend of Dorothy or...?

00:29:31 Frank Kameny 

Uh, not, nothing nice.  I recall-

00:29:34 Buck Harris

A friend of J. Edgar Hoover's, or...? 

00:29:36 Frank Kameny

Particularly... Gay, of course, at that time was very much a code-word that didn't come out into common knowledge until the early 70’s. So when I used to go on, I did a lot of public speaking starting in the middle 60’s, and until about ‘71 I always had to explain what gay meant before I started to use it in a speech.

00:29:56 Frank Kameny

And, uh... But otherwise, there- yes, there were a number of them, I, I would be hard pressed as I talk now to start listing them, I would have to sit down and really work them out.

00:30:06 Frank Kameny

But yes, there was a I first came out, and I was in Arizona at the time in 1954, I sort of got an instruction, a set of instructions, from some people I knew on all these brand-new words that I had never heard before, that had all these special meanings that I had never heard before.

00:30:29 Buck Harris

OK David, any other questions?

00:30:30 David

No, thank you.

00:30:31 Buck Harris

OK, one of the things that I've noticed of older gay couples and then, I dunno, are you in a relationship now?

00:30:36 Frank Kameny

No I’m not, I, for me... I've never been a compulsive coupler. And I've always felt, and I speak for me personally, and without implying any value judgment on anybody, each person sort of makes his own way on this sort of thing. I've always felt that variety is the spice of life.

00:30:55 Buck Harris

OK.

00:30:56 Frank Kameny

And even at my age, although some people may be surprised, I still find it very much so.

00:31:02 Buck Harris

I’m, I- I find it very admirable. Although, I am in a nice, closed relationship at this time.

00:31:07 Frank Kameny

That’s fine! As I say, each person has to find exactly what satisfies him or her individually. For me, that that's not my personal style, but- so I'm not.

00:31:17 Buck Harris

OK, but- but did you find it the case that among relationships back that you saw back in the in the 50’s, and even in the 60’s, where they sort of fit the stereotypical ‘butch-femme’ kind of relation.

00:31:29 Frank Kameny

Not among males. Among women, yes, that was very-very-very-very evident, and-

[00:31:36-00:31:50 Audio Cuts out]

00:31:50 Frank Kameny

-particularly if it's my own experience or observation.

00:31:54 Buck Harris

OK... What were you doing the day of Stonewall riots? That- that certainly is the day, we, we-, the shot, shot- the shot that was heard around the world.

00:32:00 Fank Kameny

[Laughs] Oh my, I- I don’t know.

00:32:06 Frank Kameny

I knew of the riots, in which- of course I was in touch with the gay movement, such as it was in New York, and I knew I was of the riots the- by the next day. But I- I must confess I don't know what I was doing uh that particular day, at the end of June, ‘69...

00:32:23 Buck Harris

And what was the coverage like when- when the Stonewall riots occurred? Now I've heard varying stories about what actually sparked the riots themselves, all the- all the way from that there was a raid on the bar and they just said ‘We're not going to take it anymore’ to that there was a gentleman coming in, one of the- the policeman who was coming in to pick up the payment they were paying for protection.

00:32:44 Frank Kameny

You know what you have to realize, first of all, in New York and I alluded to this much earlier in this discussion, there were- there was, with respect to the gay bars in New York, it was a very, very repressive situation. Bars, gay bars, at that time, under the state New York State Liquor Authority, well, well up until shortly before that, were illegal.

00:33:09 Frank Kameny

They as a result whenever that happens, but something goes on anyhow, you always get organized crime, and you had the mafia running the gay bars that were there. Which means you had all sorts of corruption, including police corruption, going on.

00:33:25 Frank Kameny

It was a repressive scene, there were gay bar raids, that sort of thing. And it was a situation in which attitudes were changing, things were opening up. As I said, we had introduced picketing and, for the first time, open public demonstrations by gays was thinkable, that that sort of thing.

00:33:48 Frank Kameny

It was tumultuous here at the late 60s, with this- with all of what was going on in the South with respect to the Civil Rights movement-

00:33:58 Buck Harris

The anti-war movement.

00:33:59 Frank Kameny

Uh-uh, yeah, the Vietnam War, tho- those two together provided a fuel for all the social and cultural change that took place of enormous rapidity in that period and so people were simply not willing to go along, to get along, the way they would have in earlier eras.

00:34:21 Frank Kameny

And certainly, er, in the 50’s and into the early 60’s. And finally, so yoou know- thing-, the right things just happened that evening, and triggered, it and it was off and running. And once something gets started- of that kind gets started, it develops momentum of its own and it went on for several night as you may remember.

00:33:44 Buck Harris

Yeah. The, and so from that point on, how have you seen the- the gay civil- gay and lesbian civil rights movement shaping up?

00:34:51 Frank Kameny

Well, as I indicated, I-I've answered that in part, earlier. The fir- what- what that did was to take a movement which had... tried very hard, without success, to make it itself a grassroots movement.

00:35:08 Frank Kameny

Up to that point, everybody in the gay movement knew everybody else in the gay movement and, which tells you there wasn't a very large movement.

00:35:15 Buck Harris

Yeah.

00:35:16 Fank Kameny

And that, that was the turning point, it became a grassroots movement. I indicated earlier, within a year or so there were 1500 organizations where there were 50 or 60 start. It was up to 2500 and people were losing count within another year, uh...

00:35:33 Frank Kameny

As I picked up on all the themes that were in the air at the time and that's why it was only it was as soon as 1972 that were beginning to get the gay rights wars, uh, other issues began to be pushed.

00:35:47 Frank Kameny

So something else began to happen, and in a way I started that. In 1971 I was told- I ran for Congress here in Washington as to my knowledge, at the time, the first openly gay person ever to run for public office anywhere.

00:36:04 Buck Harris

Mm—hmm.

00:36:04 Frank Kameny

And, there wa- there was then a- a about a two-year hiatus after that, but then then that got picked up. Elane Noble did the same thing in Boston two years later, and successfully ran as an open lesbian for the Massachusetts State House of Representatives.

00:36:23 Frank Kameny

And others followed there, we began to actually get into politics, and develop ourselves in- all over the country as a political force, something which we had not been before.

00:36:32 Buck Harris

Mmm.

00:36:33 Frank Kameny

Gay, uh-uh, politics in general appeared in Washington. We had been a colony, we still are to some degree, but we began to get home rule, which finally came to fruition in ‘75.

00:36:43 Frank Kameny

And we were in on the ground floor of that as it developed in the early 70’s. And so we- we have been a force in DC politics, right from the get-go, ever since. And each, politics is always local, so it was different from one place to another all over the country, but we developed as a political force, steadily through the 70’s and 80’s.

00:37:08 Buck Harris

You mentioned Boston, and that brought to mind Barney Franks and- and Gary Studds.

00:37:13 Frank Kameny

Yes, I know them both well.

00:37:18 Buck Harris

Both- both of whom did not run initially as- as out politicians, but were outed in the process, or once they were elected.

00:37:23 Frank Kameny

Barney, well, Barney, had a what you- some people would view as a scandal after he came out.

00:37:31 Buck Harris

But did-

00:37:31 Frank Kameny

Barney came out, uh, he had been sort of edging out for a while, and he was interviewed by the Boston Globe, and simply made his decision, and came out in the course of the interview. And then the scandal came later. 

00:37:48 Frank Kameny

Gary, yes, have one again- I don't- I've never seen it as a scandal but some people view it as such. Our local conservative newspaper, The Washington Times, every so often makes some nasty remarks about Gary on the basis of that.

00:38:02 Frank Kameny

But you know, they both rolled through with a certain amount of style and came out on top very nicely.

00:38:11 Buck Harris

Well, that brings me to my next question is, how do you feel about the whole idea of outing and -and you know, Michael Signorile and- and certainly William Percy, I say is taking, he makes Michelangelo seem like a kindergartener.

00:38:24 Frank Kameny

Well, he sets out in his book pretty much the, with a certain accuracy, the precepts that I said that when it first came up I when- when this whole subject first came up, I remember we had a sort of a public forum and gay community here, with people down from New York and so on.

00:38:44 Frank Kameny

And what I said was, while I can see the rationale that if you have people who are famous and accomplished and can serve as role models, there's certainly good reason to get them out if you can persuade them. When it comes to outing, I felt that people should be outed against their will on three conditions.

00:39:09 Frank Kameny

1st that you have confirmed that they are gay.

00:39:13 Frank Kameny

2nd that they have been taking actions within whatever category they're in, a public official, the head of a company or wherever they are, that they have been taking actions within their own [ambase?] which were which were continuingly hostile and anti-gay.

00:39:34 Frank Kameny

And 3rd that they have been given a fair advanced warning and a chance to reform and have not done so.

00:39:42 Buck Harris

Or to come out himself.

00:39:44 Frank Kameny

Well, alright, alright fine. Now as a side- side- after part of that because the issue has come up from time to time, however, I do not feel that the dead have any privacy rights.

00:39:58 Buck Harris

So Malcolm Forbes, and-.

00:39:58 Frank Kameny

Yes, yes I think whatever, however you may have chosen to apply any of these arguments while he was alive, the moment that the breath of life left his body, that's the end of it. If you know he's gay, saying he's gay, there is no privacy.

00:40:14 Buck Harris

OK. Who are some of your heroes? Well, actually you know what, John signaled me from the room, we need to take one more break and we'll have one more session, then we'll be out at- at, but if you hold on for about two more minutes we'll be right back.

00:40:28 Frank Kameny

Fine.

00:40:29 Unknown Young Female Announcer

For two years, the three of us Mama, Holiday and me, was some family. Every Sunday ever since we known him, Holiday took us to church. Every Sunday, Mama, said she didn’t wanna go and every Sunday, Holiday said-

00:40:38 Unknown Man

[Speaks from somewhere nearby, but not close enough to microphone for his words to be intelligible.  Not part of ad.]

00:40:41 Buck Harris

And wags and whiskers.

00:40:42 Unknown Man

And wags and whiskers.

00:40:43 Holiday Actor

Oh no Miss Thang, six days a week you’re on your own. But on the holy day, sin’s got’s to take a holiday!

00:40:49 Unknown Male Announcer

His name was Holiday and in the middle of a world of prejudice, violence and drugs, he nurtured a family. The Cleveland Playhouse takes great pride in presenting Holiday Heart, a new play by Cheryl West, author of last season’s Jar the Floor.

00:41:02 Holiday Actor

No matter how bad things get, no matter how they try and bring you down, don’t let nobody make you ashamed of who you are or where you been, who you love.  Celebrate the difference, baby!

00:41:10 Unknown Male Announcer

Come celebrate, laugh, cry and hope with Holiday and his family. Holiday Heart at the Cleveland Playhouse, now through April 3rd. For tickets called 795-7000, that's 795-7000. Celebrate Holiday Heart.

00:41:26 Unknown Young Female Announcer 

Sponsored by BP.

00:41:29 Mike White 

Hello, I'm Mayor Mike White. I know someone with AIDS, we all do. 1 in 250 Americans is infected with HIV. You can get AIDS from blood, semen and vaginal secretions with an infected person. You can get AIDS from sharing drug needles with an infected person. And you can get AIDS by being born to infected mother.

00:41:50 Mike White

That's what you need to know. Don't put yourself or others at risk. To find out more, please call the national AIDS hotline at 1-800-342-AIDS.

00:42:00 Male Announcer

Leonardo da Vinci, J Edgar Hoover.

00:42:03 Female Announcer

Anne Frank. 

00:42:03 Male Announcer

Stephen Foster.

00:42:05 Female Announcer

Amelia Earhart and Emily Dickinson.

00:42:06 Male Announcer

James Baldwin, Alexander the Great, Dag Hammarskjöld.

00:42:09 Female Announcer

Florence Nightingale.

00:42:10 Male Announcer

Plato, Cole Porter, Popes John the 12th and Julius the 2nd, Socrates.

00:42:15 Female Announcer

And dear sweet Eleanor Roosevelt.

00:42:17 Male Announcer

And William Shakespeare would all be guests on The Gay 90’s with Buck Harris, if they hadn't gone and died.

00:42:24 Buck Harris

Well we're back on the air-

00:44:29 Frank Kameny

Hi.

00:44:29 Buck harris

And- and I'll be joining you in one second, but I have to give two more spots and- Bob Dog got his spring haircut, I may have jumped the gun a bit, but we need to get him all trimmed and prettied up for the spring and also to shed all that long winter hair. And that's why I take him to “Wags and Whiskers” when he needs a grooming and an overhaul.

00:42:44-00:43:15 [Stock Wolf Howl Plays, followed by various noises of dogs barking, growling, whining, howling, and cats meowing]

00:42:45 Buck Harris

Wags and Whiskers, Bob Dog begins to wag his tail as we approach the shop. He really does enjoy going in there he goes, running into the door, and although he’s certainly happy to leave, when he, when I pick him up.

00:42:55 Buck Harris

Anyway, take your dog, or cat, to Wags and Whiskers for a nice grooming, a dip, bath, shower, whatever.  The uh, let’s see, Wags and Whiskers is family owned, our family, call 521-2012 to make an appointment.

00:43:08 Buck Harris

Just remember, Wags and Whiskers, and tell them you heard about it on the Gay 90’s.

00:43:11 Buck Harris

When they need medical attention, however, I take them to the Mid-Park Animal Hospital and they have, I mean that Mid-Park- Madison Ave Animal Hospital they take care of dogs, cats, birds, chinchillas, hamsters, and gerbils.

00:43:25-00:43:30 [Noise of a cow mooing and lowing plays.]

00:43:24 Buck Harris

Madison Ave Hospital also carries a complete line of prescription pet foods and Science Diet and health- and cows- and health blend foods.

00:43:30 Buck Harris

Connie Janice will groom, bathe, or dip your dog, or cat, but Madison Ave is located conveniently right on the corner of McKinley Avenue and Madison, right off of four- 480 and their number is 521-7060. That's 521-7060.

00:43:47 Buck Harris

Anyway, you probably heard that Dag Hammarskjöld, and you know that- the fact is Frank, that we- historically the contributions that our community has made to the world, it would probably be a pretty bland and dull world had we not made those contributions.

00:44:02 Frank Kameny

Well yes, as- as has been said by others, we are everywhere and we always have been. And I like to think that, uh, we have just a little bit more to offer than other people do.

00:44:15 Buck Harris

Yeah.

00:44:15 Frank Kameny

After all, as they pointed out, in the military, that studies have shown that gay military people do as well as, or better than, but not worse than er...

00:44:26 Buck Harris

Their heterosexual counterparts, yeah.

00:44:27 Frank Kameny

...Heterosexual service members!

00:44:27 Buck Harris

Let's go back to the phones, and uh Jimmy from Euclid. Jimmy, you’re on.

00:44:32 Jimmy

Hi Buck and er, Frank-

00:44:34 Frank Kameny

Frank.

00:44:35 Jimmy

I've got a question for you...

00:44:36 Frank Kameny

Sure.

00:44:37 Jimmy

I remember hearing, or reading, something called ‘Marches of Remembrances’ that were done in Washington, I think I went July 4th?

00:44:46 Frank Kameny

Marches of Remembrance?

00:44:49 Buck Harries

What was that about?

00:44:50 Jimmy

It was... a group of the of, uh, lesbians and gays that used to march out in front of the White House on July 4th.

00:45:00 Frank Kameny

Well, we, uh, we used to, back in ‘65, when picketing was a very radical mode of expression of dissent, things hadn't escalated the way they had by '68.

00:45:14 Frank Kameny

We started picketing by gays and that year we picketed in in front of the White House three times, the Civil Service Commission building, the Pentagon, the State department, and we started the 1st of a series of five annual 4th of July picketing demonstrations in front of Independence Hall in Philadelphia.

00:45:38 Jimmy

Oh, OK, so it was-

00:45:50 Frank Kameny

Our theme being that the Declaration of Independence and its basic precepts, the inalienable right to the pursuit of happiness and the rest, applied to us as well as all other American citizens. But they were being denied to us.

00:45:56 Jimmy

OK, now isn't that in some ways the predecessor of the Gay Pride March?

00:46:01 Frank Kameny

The one followed right on, yes! Yeah, yeah you had it right down pat the last of those was on July 4th, 1969 when the time came to start thinking about July 4th, 1970. Plans were afoot already for the first commemorative Stonewall March in New York and that simply smoothly took over the, uh, the torch from us on those, on those marches, yes.

00:46:31 Jimmy

It- it- Didn't also, the- besides the- the Pride motive didn't the manner of dress between the Marchers and the Picketers between that, the last one in the- well I thought they called it with Christopher Memorial March, or something or other, was the official name for the first march?

00:46:49 Jimmy 

Up in New York?

00:46:50 Frank Kameny

Yeah, what about I- I missed you- I don't understand your question.

00:46:52 Jimmy

The... everybody takes- takes the Pride section of it and the- the people that are against us always manage to show the pictures of the drag Queens, etcetera, etcetera.

00:47:06 Frank Kameny

Oh, yes, yes...

00:47:07 Jimmy

Wasn't there a change in the way the protesters at the Independence Hall March and-?

00:47:15 Frank Kameny

Oh, what you have to remember- Yes, although it wasn’t a sharp thing. What you have to realize is that that there was a tremendous, er, change in costume- in costume and wardrobe it’s- through the 60’s. 

00:47:31 Frank Kameny

In the early to middle 60’s there was no such thing as anything other than a white shirt for a man. Everybody- men still wore hats, they were beginning to go after Kennedy.

00:47:42 Buck Harris

Right.

00:47:43 Frank Kameny

People wore coats and ties routinely. The Blue Jeans Revolution hadn't come in, blue jeans weren't there yet. 

00:47:49 Jimmy

Mm-hmm.

00:47:50 Frank Kameny

Uh, dress in general and everywhere, was much more formal than it wa- [stammering] -Through the middle of the 60’s, much more formal than it was by the end of the 60’s.

00:48:01 Buck Harris

And then the Hippie Era hit.

00:48:02 Frank Kameny

Yes, exactly.

00:48:02 Buck Harris

Yeah, yeah.

00:48:05 Frank Kameny

And so, when we were planning our demonstrations in ‘65, we were simply consistent with spirit of that time, but not three-or-four-or-five years later. We simply said that all the women should wear dresses and- and stockings and men should wear suits and shirts and ties.

00:48:27 Frank Kameny

And that was the, er, par for the course for that day. By ‘68 or ‘69-

00:48:32 Buck Harris

It had certainly changed.

00:48:33 Frank Kameny

It was changing distinctly, and we flexed with that. And by ‘70 when you had the first Gay Pride march, of course the change was quite complete in, society and culture generally.

00:48:46 Jimmy

Did you ever march in the one in New York?

00:48:48 Frank Kameny

Did I?

00:48:49 Jimmy

Yes.

00:48:50 Frank Kameny

Uh, yes I marched in the first several of them, starting in ‘70, until we began to have our own in Washington a few years later. And then down here. Now the difference instantly is interesting.

00:49:02 Frank Kameny

The New- for New York, over the years, the main event has always been the march. Because, they were- the New York for all its vaunted, fame has been the utter abysmal failure, and the horror story of the- of the gay movement.

00:49:23 Frank Kameny

And so they marched because they were still protesting. We had it in Washington. So our event every year has always been a celebration.

00:49:30 Buck Harris

A Pride Event.

00:49:31 Frank Kameny

A- A festival to- onto which we capped a brief march, which was not terribly- er, a terribly big part of the whole day.

00:49:39 Jimmy

Mm-hmm.

00:49:40 Frank Kameny

A very different approach between the two cities, because we are the gay political, gay political success story of the movement, whereas New York is the failure story.

00:49:50 Buck Harris

Still fighting, yeah. Alright-

00:49:52 Jimmy

One more, one more question, please.

00:49:52 Buck Harris

Alright-

00:49:53 Jimmy

How are you planning on celebrating Stonewall this year?

00:49:57 Frank Kameny

Now, this year, while things haven't firmed up, there is at least a significant chance that I will be up for the Stonewall 25 celebration in New York. [some stammering] -Detailed plans haven’t been filled.

00:50:13 Buck Harris

Jimmy, are you gonna be there?

00:50:14 Jimmy

I don't think so-

00:50:15 Buck Harris

No?

00:50:15 Jimmy

But I will hopefully be down with the, uh, the Cleveland group again.

00:50:18 Buck Harris

Well, Cleveland that's on, I think June 11th it’s here, so Cleveland's gay pride march, we'll be gearing up for that one.

00:50:23 Jimmy

OK, thank you very much.

00:50:24 Buck Harris

Jim, thanks for calling. Alright, let's go on to John, on uh, John. From Lakewood.

00:50:29 John

Yes, I have a lil’ different type of question. The organized religion, especially fundamentalists, have their own quotation from Bible against the gays and lesbians.

00:50:37 Frank Kameny

Yes.

00:50:37 John

How ‘bout the other major religions around the world. Do they record any scriptures or count- comparable to scriptures, religious studies, anything, codes?

00:50:46 Frank Kameny

Well you have vast numbers of different religions, of course.  And I-I... I’ll attempt to answer in brief, but I don't- do not claim to be an authority on any of those religions so it’s possible that I'll get some of my facts wrong. 

00:51:01 Frank Kameny

Now, for example, I believe that Buddhism and Confucianism don't have any particular anti-gay precept. Islam does, I believe the Koran does. Uh, Judaism does, although it's not been made that much of, except among the Orthodox who make very much of it, to the extent that the fundamentalist Christians do.

00:51:28 Frank Kameny

So, it varies... enormously from one faith to another.

00:51:33 John

Thank you.

00:51:34 Buck Harris

All right, good questions. Boy, we are rounding out the hour- Who are your heroes?

00:51:41 Frank Kameny

[laughs] I was hoping you wouldn't come back to that, because it's hard to say. I have always been a very independent thinker and so have tended not to set up role models for myself. I suppose if I gave some really long thoughts to that, if you had told me a day or two in advance, you were going to ask that, I might have come up with an answer.

00:52:05 Buck Harris

Alright, I’ll-

00:52:06 Frank Kameny

But, for the moment I really don't have one.

00:52:08 Buck Harris

I'll, I'll let you go on that one, but I would like to know, I mean, you mentioned that there were some 2500 organizations by 1972. Now there seem to be thousands of them-

00:52:16 Frank Kameny

Yes.

00:52:16 Buck Harris

And- and it's actually terribly frustrating because I get- once you're on one list, you get it, you know, you get solicitations from every gay group and organization in the city and the state and in the country and and the- the well runs dry occasionally. And so if you were going to get- send a check to one organization right now, if you if you had $10,000 to give to one organization, which organization would that be?

00:52:37 Frank Kameny

And here it’s- it’s a matter of where my own personal emphases go, yours may be different-

00:52:43 Buck Harris

Well let’s say gay-lesbian, not AIDS.

00:52:45 Frank Kameny

I would, I would tend to give to one, or more, of the large, national gay rights organizations. Certainly, the Human Rights Campaign Fund, which has done some superb work.

00:53:01 Buck Harris

And now there’s a new group, the Gay and Lesbian Americans.

00:53:02 Frank Kameny

The National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, an older organization of which I was one of the founders, which has also done a very great deal of enormously valuable work.

00:53:14 Buck Harris

How about the new group, uh, Gay and Lesbian Americans?

00:53:17 Frank Kameny

I was present at their conference, at- at their founding conference, if I were giving money, I would wait- wait a while. They may very well turn out to be valuable and useful, there's a good chance that they will. If they once did, then I would.

00:53:32 Frank Kameny

At this point they’re- they’re too new, unless I really had sums of money.

00:53:37 Buck Harris

But you must have, you’re-

00:53:38 Frank Kameny

I- I wouldn't quite yet, er, to any great degree. And that's not to not to be interpreted as, in any sense whatsoever, being derogatory toward them. It's a comment only on their very great newness.

00:53:51 Buck Harris

Well, Frank, I got to say it has been an honor. It's been a pleasure to get to know you better and I hope to see you in New York on June 26th. And next week, two of your friends will be on Barbara Gittings and Kay Lahusen, to talk about the lesbian involvement in the Gay and Lesbian Civil Rights

00:54:05 Frank Kameny

Ah, yes, give them my very-very fond regards.

00:54:07 Buck Harris

I'll give him a hug for you-

00:54:09 Frank Kameny

Ok.

00:54:09 Buck Harris

And- and this is Buck Harris with The Gay 90’s, we're signing out with Frank Kameny. A pleasure speaking you for the last hour. Tune in next week, otherwise, it's approaching 11:00 o'clock. Do you know where your lover is?

00:54:20-00:54:29 [Unknown song plays, followed by some unrelated acoustic guitar strumming, before cutting out.]