Streaming Media in Cleveland Memory:
The Gay 90's with Buck Harris

Transcript

[Unintelligible]

Announcer 1: Get ready Cleveland. WHK is taking talk radio to new heights. 

0:12.25

Announcer 2: So fasten your seat belts. Return your tray tables to their original position. And sit tight. 

Announcer 1: Stay tuned for two hours of Cleveland's most provocative and stimulating talk show. Sometimes serious sometimes humorous but 

never a straight talk. It's the Gay Nineties with Buck Harris. 

Announcer 2: Call 578-1420 to get in on the conversation. 

0:49.51

[I Am What I Am performed by unknown male singer plays.]

Buck Harris: [singing along] I don’t want pity. [singing stops] Well, good evening Cleveland. This is Buck Harris with the Gay Nineties. This is WHK 1420 on your AM dial. Welcome to the Gay Nineties, the voice of Northeast Ohio's gay and lesbian community. 

1:02.26

Buck Harris: It is the intent of this show to provide programming that represents the diversity of our gay and lesbian community and reveal the deep cultural and historical contributions that for too long have gone unrecognized. The opinions expressed are those of the host and guests and not necessarily those of WHK and its management. 

1:19.12

If you are a member of the gay or lesbian community, a supporter or just a curious listener, we welcome you. And please do give us a call at 578-1420. If you're not a friend don't call in. Don't listen in. Find some other way to torture yourself. 

1:33.58

A word about our advertisers unless otherwise stated you may assume their sexual orientation to be either gay, bi or straight. Well we're back on the air Karen. Karen: Hi Buck.  

Buck:It must be Friday night. 

Karen: Here it is Friday night. 

Buck: Here we are in Cleveland. What a week. What a week. 

Karen: Yeah.. 

Buck: Actually more specifically what a weekend. Last weekend we were on the air Friday night but then Saturday was the-

Karen: We were cookin’. 

Buck: We arrived in Cleveland-

Karen: Literally!

Buck: We marched right down Euclid Avenue from 22nd Street and- 

Karen: Yes we did! 

Buck: We camped out on public square all day long. 

Karen: Yes we did, we had a wonderful crowd. 

Buck: Not only that, not only wonderful, but um, uh th-the organizers were somewhat apprehensive. There were some flak about it being downtown for the first time 

Karen: Right, out in public more.

Buck: And guess what. It was the largest turnout we've ever had in Cleveland's history. So eh...

Karen: And I didn’t get a sense of being watched or...

Buck: Oh I was watched, and I loved it. Yes I was cruised-  

Karen: I watching you getting watched. 

Buck: I was watched, Yeah. 

But-but, and  it was also one of the things, that we had our banner our gay 90's banner or marching banner. And we also had a booth and 

Karen: We were on the news-

Buck:  I wasn't though. 

Karen: No I think I was a little bit, Karen always gets on the news. 

Buck: Well, it’s, you know I tried to knock her down when I saw the camera but it didn't work. 

2:44.05

But I one of the things that was interesting that came out of the Gay Pride Day was we had a straw a straw vote to see whether people wanted us to move to Monday night and Monday night won. Three hundred and sixty seven To 65. 

Karen: Right. 

Buck: So-

Karen: It was overwhelming. 

Buck: So I have some good news to you listeners. We are moving to Monday night in August. So I think the-the first Monday in August is August 2nd. So tell your friends we're moving. But I also got to say at this point that if we don't get support from the community if we don't get more advertisers and more importantly if those of you who are listening do not support our advertisers we're not going to make it until August. We are you know I hate to start on and sort of a sour note but we're in dire straits financially. Karen and I do not get paid for doing this show. We have volunteered our time since March 26th and we really need the support of our community and you know one of the things that really it was certainly nice to hear from one of our listeners who said I went to Snicker's last week and I took 12 friends there for dinner. I said oh good did you tell them that you had heard about Snickers on the Gay Nineties. Well no I forgot. You know if you if you don't do that our advertisers don't know that this show is having an impact and they're cancelling 

Karen: Right.

Buck: -and we've lost some advertisers. We've gained a few new ones but boy we're losing them and we. And so I got to beg you if you want this show to stay on the air, you've got to support our advertisers and we do need more advertisers when you go to gay friendly or gay owned business to say "hey by the way I haven't heard an ad for you on Gay Nineties. Why not?” Otherwise you know I took the time this week to listen to G. Gordon Liddy, they call him GeeGee suspicious doesn't sound suspicious. I listen to Joel Rose and I heard nothing but queer bashing over the airwaves all day long we hear Rush Lobotomy we hear G Gordon Liddy and we hear Joel Rose and they are they aretearing us up saying things about us that are horrible and if we don't keep the show on the air we'll never have a voice to counter that. And otherwise you'll hear things like. Lacey do you have that cued up. Listen to this. 

4:49.21

[Gay Bashing Clip From Another Show Plays] -llected another [unintelligible] test. Thirty-five hundred dollars for a dog? It better sh*t pearls. Billary says fighting fairies will be feared. While you’re at the front, Be careful you're not reared, getting by on thirty dollars really is a b*tch., now Bubba-Bill gun’ tell me I’m rich. [Clip fades out]

5:02.1

Buck Harris: Now that's the kind of crap that they're playing over the talk show airwaves all day long and we need to counter that kind of stuff and I want to hear stuff like. [The Village People’s ‘In the Navy’ plays] 

5:19.41

The Village People. And we’re dancing it up here in the studio. 

5:26.75

This is a long introduction but  it is the famous ‘In the Navy’. 

[In The Navy continues to play, before fading out.]

5:50.32

Well I think the Point is made.  I-I didn’t realize the intro was so long. But the fact is that we want to stay on the air and we hope you want us to stay on the air and support us right. 

6:00.26

Karen: That’s right. And our advertisers want to track their advertising dollars and how they do that is by you telling them where you heard about them. 

6:09.28

Buck: Yeah I went to WHK when I was trying to convince him to put the show on the air so I said we're going to reach the most affluent audience in the world, the one with the most expendable income. 

6:18.2?

Where are they spending it? I don't know. Well anyway enough of that. The sermon’s over the lecture’s on cause I, We're going to be a hell of a good show tonight. you know why? two old friends.

[Laughter from guests and Karen]

Buck: Two friends whom I've known... Two friends whom I’ve known for a long time have join- actually you know I was thinking about this, Twiggy and Melissa. We go back to nineteen seventy five. 

Melissa: That's right. 

Buck: That's right. 

Twiggy: No that was my mother. That's not me. 

Buck: No you know when you were running that finest institution in Cleveland, it was about the only one in town as a matter of fact at the time. Twiggy’s bar 

Twiggy: Yeah 

Buck: Yeah and I was a bartender there. 

Twiggy: Yes.

Buck: I was kind of fresh in town and I came up to you and I lied and I said I'd bartended in Washington D.C. 

Twiggy: I know. 

7:00.53

Melissa: I think we all lied to get a job there. 

7:03.23

Buck: Yeah, and uh-.And first of all I lied about my age because I was only 15. 

7:09.47

Twiggy:  Yeah- Oh God... Was there anybody in the bar, older than 21 besides myself? 

Buck: Now, I think that was-

Twiggy: I mean, I wasn't 21 either. But there were people that did come in that were over 21. 

7:18.16

Buck: Yeah. But but back then you were the reigning drag queen of Cleveland and-

Twiggy: Still am. 

Buck: Yeah, and still going strong. 

7:26.3

Buck: I saw Karen and I went to Euphoria the other night. 

7:29.69

Karen: Right. 

7:30.25

Buck: And and I knew that you were going to be performing, but I thought you would come out and do a rather sedate number, you know maybe something sort of torchy a little slow and oh you kicked those heels high in the air and those legs. I didn't see a varicose vein anywhere. 

7:43.79

Twiggy: You didn't see the respirator in the back. 

[Assorted Laughter]

7:47.15

Buck: But anyway the fact remains that you've been at this a long time and I want to talk a little bit about the history of Cleveland's gay and lesbian community. Melissa?

Melissa: Yes? 

Buck: How many titles have you held? 

Name a few. 

7:58.01

Melissa: Well I won Miss Gay Cleveland in 1976.  Miss Gay Ohio America 1977-78 Miss Ohio female impersonator 1979-80 Miss Gay Ohio USA ‘80-’81. And then Miss Gay Ohio America again in ‘82. Along with being Miss east coast, and Miss Great Lakes and there was... a couple other ones somewhere along the line there, too. 

8:21.14

Buck: So in other words you uh-. Many-many honors have been bestowed upon you. 

8:26.99

Melissa: You can say that. 

Buck: Yeah yeah. Well I, you know I also happen to see you on the stage in other than drag in Torch Song Trilogy. That was how many years ago? 

Melissa: ...A few

Buck: A few?

Melissa: I don't remember exactly-

Buck: It was a long time ago 

Melissa: It was.

Buck: one of the things, though, about the movie I loved the beginning of the movie where they showed little Arnold in a closet playing with some paper dolls. And then he was um in his mother's clothes. And so it was apparent and it wasn't anything new to me that that people who have a leaning towards that kind of activity of dressing and when do start so at a very early very early age. MELISSA How 

Old were you when you began to become aware of the fact that you really had a. I presume it is a desire sort of an urge to want to uh-

Melissa: To wear the dresses? 

9:14.6

Buck: Yeah. 

Melissa: Well I, It always fascinated me because I thought my mother always looks so beautiful when she would go out for the evening and she had this one dress I forget this a matter-of-fact I made her keep it. It doesn't fit her anymore and definitely never fit me. It was this beautiful red chiffon thing with this long flowing scarf that went with it and I always saw that dress and I believe it or not  think I put it on more than once you know. 

Buck: And how old were you?

Melissa: Young. 

Buck: Five, six? 

Melissa: I could go back. I mean I remember Halloween. I always wanted to go out as a little girl.

Buck: Yeah

Melissa: Always. 

9:43.21

Twiggy: And you finally did. 

Buck: [Chuckles] Uh, Twiggy. How old were you when you started to, uh? 

9:48.72

Twiggy: Oh, well see I was kind of old to all of this. I mean I came out late and I 

started drag I started all very late. I had already. I was in my mid 20s by the 

time I came out. 

Buck: Is that right? 

Twiggy: I had also been, I’m also a gay veteran, I had been in the army for two years. So I came out very late.  Of course, that was in the 60s and gay was just beginning to be somewhat accepted. So I went through a lot of that revolutionary period so I didn't really start doing drag, probably until I was about 27. 

10:17.87

Buck: Is that right?

Twiggy: Mm-hmm.

Buck: How old though were you when you realized that you had feelings, gay feelings, homosexual feelings?

Twiggy: About 24 years old. 

Buck: Really? Really?

Twiggy: Yeah.

Buck: Because, I was 

10:28.01

M4

Twiggy:I mean,  I knew there was something different because I of course had several girlfriends. Believe it or not and I was engaged a couple of times but every time it was getting really close to getting very very serious getting married and I and I'd kind of back up I'm like there's something missing here. There's just there's not the feeling that I should have and so many of my my other straight friends were just you know they were getting married and they had girlfriends and they were just so happy and so pleased that they had this relationship, and I was kind of like eh you know I like the girl she's a lot of fun but eh 

Buck: Yeah.

Twiggy: so was life for me. 

11:00.73

Buck: What is the politically correct term nowadays are you a drag queen, a female impersonator, a transgender person a transsexual? How would you describe yourself? 

11:10.93

Twiggy: Well let me take the first part, and then I think I’ll let Melissa answer the second part. First of all, drag queen is a very very old term. 

Buck: It comes from where? 

Twiggy: It comes from Shakespearean theater.  And originally-

Melissa: And she knows this because she was there when he told her.

[Laughter and cross-talk] 

Buck: So Will told you all this, huh?  

Twiggy: That’s it, he told me that’s what we'll call it. And of course they used a lot of young men playing women's parts in those days and the dresses of course would sometimes be longer because you're talking about young boys playing female parts and the dresses would drag on the floor. There comes the term drag queen and of course female impersonation is a very-very old art it goes back thousands of years and it's oddly enough it's only in the last maybe 75 years and basically in this country was not as accepted as a entertainment form. I don't know if that's because of our Victorian morals that we had during that. You know this last nine years and, you know what, I shouldn’t even say nine years, the previous 60 years before that because it was very accepted in England and still is in their vaudeville and in cabaret shows and stuff. And in Paris, It's still a very big commodity. Um and of course Melissa Ross has been doing this for a couple of years. And she might want to infringe on what is the correct teinology and give them the differences between which one is which one so people know that transsexual and 

Melissa: I am considered a male actress. 

[Twiggy and Melissa Laugh]

12:35.05

Melissa: Um, the differences?

Buck: Uh, your literature says female impersonator. 

Melissa: Mm-hmm

Buck: OK. Not drag queen.

Melissa: No. 

Buck: Why do you call yourself a female impersonator? 

12:43.03

Melissa: Because it's more appealing to the public. It attracts of a greater variety of people. I mean your average, heterosexual person would not relate to the word drag queen I don't think. 

12:53.43

Buck: But but is that the audience to whom you're appealing I mean do you expect heterosexuals-. 

Melissa: I have respect for everybody. 

Buck: I mean, I've been to many of your shows I'm not seeing too many straight people hanging around that I know of. 

Melissa: Oh they’re there. 

13:04.96

I have a I do a lot of things away from the gay bar scenes too. I do a lot of private parties that people book me for we did a big thing out in Chagrin-

Twiggy: Yes.

Melissa: Chagrin Falls with no one there was not the youngest person there was probably Twiggy: Oh I would say- I 

Would say 

Melissa:16. 

Twiggy: Yeah.

Melissa: I mean, Everybody else was older. You know all these very affluent men

Twiggy: [Says something]

Melissa:- who had heard about me and they booked me to do a show. 

13:27.37

So it's it's, it's more appealing for booking reasons to be booked as a female impersonator. 

Twiggy: I think the biggest confusion we hear in a lot of the talk shows and a lot on television and they keep on confusing transvestites with either drag queens or female impersonators or illusionists or whatever you want to call them. And we're certainly not transvestites. 

Melissa: No. 

13:48.4

Buck: No tran- by definition transvestites are predominantly heterosexual men. And the different the ingredient in transvestitism is that when they don the clothing they actually that's part of the sexual arousal. It's one one of many kinds of fetishes. 

14:02.92

Melissa: Trust us, it’s not a sex thing-

Twiggy: It’s just pain, It is just pain 

Melissa: It’s not a sexual arousal for us. 

14:05.66

Buck: Let, let's very graphic how pain, I mean 

Melissa: [Unintelligible sound of confusion]?

Buck: what does one do with their genitalia. When you're, where do you tuck I mean, it does. 

14:11.62

Karen: where does that thing go? 

Melissa: You put the baby away for the night. 

14:16.72

Well I wear a thing called a gaffe which is best described maybe it resembles a very tight fitting G-string and basically I think you can kind of get the picture when you put this thing on it's very very tight and it kind of makes things return to-. 

14:31.31

Twiggy: It makes your eyes real big too. 

14:33.56

Melissa: It makes things return back to where they were when you were first born. OK. You can get my drift there. 

14:39.27

Buck: This is the Gay 90s with Buck Harris on WHK 1420 Our number here is 578-1420 if you would like to have a conversation with Melissa or Twiggy and otherwise we're going to go to the phones right now. We have a caller Al from Shaker Heights. 

14:57.58

Al From Shaker Heights: Yes, we ate at Snickers.

Buck: Would you please flush this call. Thank you very much for calling. 

15:04.3

We're going to go continue on the phones. 

15:06.04

Tim. 

Tim: Hello. 

Buck: Hi Tim how are you. 

Tim: Oh hi real good, Buck? 

Buck: Yes. 

Karen: Hi Tim. 

Tim: Hello! Melissa, Twiggy. 

Melissa and Twiggy: Hi.  

Tim: Great to hear you on the radio finally. 

Melissa: Thank you. 

Twiggy: Thank you.

15:16.01

Tim: Yeah, Hey listen I saw you the other night at uh at uh Merchants. You were fabulous as usual. 

15:22.03

Melissa: Which one of us?

Tim: Both of you. 

Twiggy: Oh how nice. 

Tim: Come one, you’re legends. 

15:26.41

Twiggy: We raised a lot of money last night for a very very good cause I'm glad you were in the audience. 

15:30.76

Tim: Oh, it was great seein’ ya. It really was. Hey listen one thing I talked to Buck about this a couple times. And there's a problem in the gay community with female impersonators, there’s a stigma and people are very very intimidated by it and a lot of people, it's like you know, I mean you see these ads in the you know like Scene magazine no femmes, and stuff like that. 

Buck: Yeah 

Tim: And it's like there’s a stigma and there’s really no respect involved in the talent and performance. And Twiggy we go back I mean back to your place. You know, you had some of the finest entertainment at Twiggy’s Place that I have ever witnessed in my entire life. 

Twiggy: Oh, thank you.

16:20.49

Tim: Probably the greatest memories I've ever had. 

Buck: And bartenders 

Twiggy: And bartenders.

Tim: And bartenders, too. Yeah. 

Twiggy: And of course Melissa Ross performed there, too. 

16:28.21

Tim I'm wondering how we confront the situation within our community so that there is no more. I mean everybody is like really cutting everybody's throat. 

16:39.94

Melissa: That's been a problem for a long time it's like we sit here and we continuously parade up and down streets ask- asking you know asking for equal rights-

Tim: Yeah!

Melissa: -when we don't even have rights within our own ranks. I mean you sit there. 

Tim: It’s like you’re stabbing yourself in the back.

Melissa: Exactly. You sit there and you degrade or put down what we do and we know it's an acceptable artform that's been around like you said-

Tim: Exactly.

Melissa: -it for hundreds of years. 

Tim: Exactly. 

17:00.19

Buck: You know what I think the problem is, is that that many gay men who are uncomfortable about their own sexuality and their own gender identity feel very threatened when, when they see the drag queens who joined the ranks and our marches and things and I've heard many, many gay men say you know they give us a bad name. 

17:19.52

Melissa: Well let’s not forget that it was a drag queen that broke through for us at Stonewall.  

Buck: Sure-sure, right. 

17:24.52

Twiggy: And Buck can you address that question a little bit.  

Buck: Sure-sure. 

Twiggy: I’ve been in the Pride march several times and I and unfortunately I could not make it this year. And of course as most of the audience already realizes Melissa Ross and myself we are female impersonators we do appear a lot at clubs and stuff and I'm very mad sometimes when my other gay brothers and sisters, they they turn this into the Pride Parade is supposed to be for gay rights. This is not a time for you to wear your Halloween costume. There is a time and a place for that and I'm very very offended when somebody, somebody who's not there not even female impersonator it is just somebody ran to the Salvation Army grabbed a skirt and a wig and you know that the camera is going to pan on to them it's going to be on national news and the next thing somebody is going to say well they're all like that. See all the guys want to dress like women and if they're turning something that serious into a camp and I know Melissa listen I resent that very much if it's oddly enough we've had some of our drag siste who have done that and they've gone and they're so believable. The cameras don't even look at them because they just look like pretty girls walking down the street. So I think a lot of it is within yourselves. Anybody that's out there listening when you have these things when you see somebody making a fool of their own gay lifestyle then you tell them it's like hey this is inappropriate for today. You know you can do this in the. You can do this in the bars, you can do this at home at home but you know let's not be inappropriate. 

18:46.6

Buck: This is the gay nineties and our number here's 578-1420. Tim, if you want to hold on if you have another question or comment. We need to go to a commercial break though so we can again as I reminded us earlier pay for this show. 

18:57.1

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19:17.95

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19:31.98

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19:40.45

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19:57.51

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21:02.59

[Song by Romanovsky & Phillips] "I remember dressing up in my mother’s clothes. She had hordes of high heel shoes and plenty of pairs of pantyhose. She had wigs to make me look a thousand of different ways and blouses made of silk and evening gowns for days. My mothers clothes."

21:25.82

Buck: [Singing Along] My mother’s clothes, my mother’s clothes. [Buck stops singing.] Romanovsky and Phillips, aren’t they wonderful? We haven't had them in Cleveland for a while we got to bring them back to town. 

Karen: Really? They haven’t been, they haven’t been here...

Buck: Yeah. But anyway that was in honor of my guests tonight Melissa Ross and Twiggy both reigning drag queens here in Clevetown but you know what we're going to get back to Tim. I think he’s still holding but so Tim one second We'll be right back to you. 

21:48.71

One of the things though is I think we're going to see in 1994 which is the 25th anniversary of Stonewall. I see a whole new movement, though. I mean even that they've coined the term now transgendered to be more inclusive. For people who are transsexual people who dress in drag, the whole drag kings, drag queens, butches and femmes and the whole bit. And I really think we're seeing a major shift in our community where as in even in the introduction to the show the diversity of the gay and lesbian and now I've got to say bisexual community especially because there were also number we've got a lot of feedback at Prides and  thing. Why don't you the word bi in there somewhere. I admit we've got to go we've got to be more inclusive. Those parades are for us to march. And I will even allow some of the not so attractive and maybe a little bit over camp drag queens to march next to me but I too I must say. I wish they had. 

22:40.42

Twiggy: No, I know. I don't want to see that anti-them-doing-that,  I understand they want to have fun and it is supposed to be a fun day for us also. But I also know how so much of the media works the media will not take the average woman, the average man, the average bisexual person with a baseball cap and a T-shirt on. They're not interesting. They're going to take the person that is the most unusual-

Buck: Outlandish.

Twiggy: -outlandish in some cases. 

Buck: Dykes on bikes with their bazoons[breasts] hanging out. 

Twiggy: Exactly. Exactly. And so you have to kind of think twice about what you're doing and it's like I'm 100 percent gay. And my female impersonation is a stage thing that I do to entertain in nightclubs whether they're gay or straight. I don't go out and march up and down the street. I've had opportunities or, not opportunities, reasons where we've had publicity things to go to and we've had to go out in the middle of the day go somewhere in drag. Well I don't have a big hat with big flowers on it and hairy chest showing I just try to blend in with the other ladies. 

23:45.5

Buck: And you go look like Elizabeth Taylor when you go out. 

Twiggy: Oh why thank you, you’re so kind Buck. I just love it when you talk to me like this. 

23:56.15

Buck: Uh, Tim did you have any other questions or comments. 

Tim: Uh, yes, like I said you did mention the situation on how to deal with somebody who is being a bit offensive. And I really appreciate this. I just, one other thing, Melissa?  Twiggy? to agree. 

Melissa: Yes?

Tim: Claudia says hi, misses ya, loves ya. 

24:18.95

Melissa: Oh, Timmy. Now I know who you are. 

24:21.32

How is Claudia? She still in the Army or whatever?

Buck: [singing] In the Navy.

Tim: [singing] In the Navy. You got it right. 

Buck: Alright, thank you very much for calling, Tim. 

Tim: Claudia sends her love, okay?

Melissa: Thank you.

Twiggy: Thank you.

Melissa: OK bye bye. 

Karen: Bye Tim.

Buck: And Rick from Parma you're on. 

Rick: Hi Buck.

Buck: Hi Rick how you doing? 

24:34.85

Rick: Aw, pretty good. 

Buck: Good. 

Rick: Oh, I’m so hurt, this is my kinda show. I’d love to be on this. 

24:39.56

Buck: Well you know what my guess is we'll get back to the subject again in the future. But I must say my heart went out to my old friends. And so I promise I know we've talked on the phone before. But do you have any questions or comments for our guests? 

24:52.1

Rick: Oh yeah, can I stay on the phone with them for a while? You know, maybe you can patch in and I can be a part of it or something? 

24:58.61

Buck: We don't we don't have the ability for you to hear our callers though so. So I promise we'll we'll do another show in the future and I'll have you here in the studio. 

25:07.1

Karen: That's the other aspect of this too. 

Buck: Yeah. 

Rick: Alright, don’t hang up, don’t hang up, I’m okay.

Buck: OK. OK. 

Rick: Hi sweethearts, how are you doing? 

Melissa: Fine how are you?

Twiggy: Fine. 

25:15.1

Rick: Pretty good, I think Buck didn’t fill ya in, I’m a cross-dresser.  So I’m kinda qualified. I belong on this show.

25:19.76

Buck: But actually that's a different topic altogether that really is transvestitism.

Rick: No not really, not really, no-no-no-no-no. 

25:27.09

Buck: Now wait a minute, cross-dressing is different then drag.

Twiggy: Yeah, that’s, that’s diff-

Melissa: Yeah.

Rick:  Well it’s different than drag, but- 

25:34.19

Twiggy: Well, tell us, tell us more. We’re always interested in hearing what you have to say. Tell us more. 

Rick: What really transvestism is as far as most cross-dressers are concerned, that’s kind of in preparation for transsexualism. 

25:44.33

Buck: Uh, no-no-no.

Twiggy: No it’s not. 

Rick: Oh as far as cross dressing is concerned 

Melissa: It has led to that. But I don't think it's, it's a step to.

25:51.01

Twiggy: Are you are you a homosexual or are you a bisexual? 

Rick: I’m bisexual. 

Twiggy: You’re a bisexual.

Rick: Mm-hmm.

25:56.62

Buck: We have Dr. Ruth sitting here now in the studio.

Twiggy: Well, you kn- 

Melissa: I'm bisexual also. 

26:01.36

Rick: [doing an accent] You have to talk up, because I can’t hear you, Doctor Ruth. [end of accent] Alright, go ahead. I thought I had her here, too.  Okay, go ahead.

26:05.81

Twiggy: All right, well, you know from my limited experience with with some of the transvestites I know. And the transsexuals the transsexuals usually are somebody that has. uh decided that they want to be a female and to get their surgery they do have to live in drag for a year. Or they cannot get the surgery so they're. 

26:29.65

So they you know they go through that process.

Rick: And that’s what we sort of consider a transvestite into cross-dressing. 

26:34.63

Twiggy: Well the transvestites that I have met normally are very interested in being with women and certainly are not very interested in being with men at all and they're very they have a very different attitude about how they even dress than say Melissa Ross and I do. You know we do very glamorized versions of actresses and women and they want to look-

Rick: Well that’s kind of female impersonator though, correct? 

26:58.36

Twiggy: Right

Melissa: Right. That's exactly what we’re talking about. 

27:00.34

Rick: OK but that's, that is, well OK. Alright.

27:04.42

Melissa: Gotcha. 

27:05.58

Rick: We have different definitions. 

Buck: But I tell you what before I bring you on the show I want you to read a book called Vested Interest it’s a recently released book and I don't remember the author's name as a matter of fact I'm going to have her as a guest on the show in the future as well.

Rick: Well, okay, but-

Buck: But read that book because I think she very clearly distinguishes the differences between transvestitism, transsexualism and transgender the whole you know. 

27:26.55

Buck: And as-

Rick: We we talked about that before there are variances in 

our community. 

27:32.35

Karen: Right. Just more of the diversity. 

Rick: Right.

Twiggy: Oh very much so. There’s even a diversity among 

Karen: Sub-subculture 

Twiggy: Yes, even amongst ourselves 

Rick: Well, you know, I was talking to Buck about this.. 

27:43

Rick: There’s some people that get into it a little bit like you know, like some pantyhose or female undergarments and that’s a sexual turn-on but they’re not really cross-dressers-

Buck: But, that's the definition of a transvestite. someone who is turned on by it when they wear their wife's panties or or you know and it's and it can be just as sexual orientation can be in degrees there are people who are exclusively homosexual and have been so all their lives and people who are exclusively heterosexual. Actually both extremes are rather unusual. Most of us like to Twiggy you're talking about you had been engaged in I presume had also had sexual experience of a woman that it was my history while I was engaged when I was in college. But but you know and the same is true with the degrees of transvestitism. I mean there are people who only wear panties and that all they wear

Rick: Right.

Buck: and there are others who wear the full regalia and get dressed up with the wigs and you know.

And anyway all I can say is I think we're proving very clearly last night that it's a very confused and even the professionals. 

28:38.34

Melissa: I think it's a totally different show.  Bye-bye 

28:39.83

Rick: No-no wait, don’t go yet- [unintelligible]

Buck: Well I but, but we have other callers on the line so I need to 

keep moving along. 

28:45.61

Rick:  No-no, no, I just want to say though you know you were talking earlier about you know trying to keep the show on the air and all that 

Buck: Yeah

Rick: You know I think you and Karen do a really good show. 

28:54.17

Karen: Thank you you.

Buck: Thank you. 

Rick: Really. 

Karen: Thanks. 

Buck We, you alright. Have you been able to support any of our advertisers? 

28:58.6

Rick: Well, as a matter of fact I wanted to meet you at the meeting but I had a death in my family. I had to go out of town.

Buck: Aww.

Karen: Sorry to hear that. 

Rick: [something]

Buck: good well. Well go to Fandangos or Snicker’s 

Rick: Wait-wait don’t hang up yet, one more thing real quick. OK.

Buck: Yeah.

Rick: My CD sisters, you wanted a format, you wanted somebody to put a show on for us, you wanted somebody who understands us well Karen and Buck are doing that, you know and you got the chance to to speak up-

Buck: Yeah.

Karen: Call in.

Rick: Speak up, speak out and support the people that support the show. 

29:26.92

Buck: Thank you very much. 

Karen: Thanks Rick. 

Buck: All right.

Melissa: Thank you. 

Karen: And I love, I get turned down when I put my wife's panties on... my head. 

[Assorted Laughter]

Buck: Sure.

29:35.51

Buck: Anyway, Eugene you're on. 

Eugene: Hello how are you?

Buck: Eugene, I’m fine, how are you?

Karen: How are you, Gene?

29:38.35

Eugene: Oh fine. Listen, it’s always a pleasure to hear you.  You know, as I sit here on Friday nights and I listen, I’m 58 years old, and for 40 years in Cleveland, I’ve waited for this day. I’ve had so many drag queens just passed on for whatever the reason were, gotten killed at blank and blank and blank. And this was our dream. I wish they joys was alive today, to hear this. 

Buck: Yeah.

Eugene: This is really a dream come true. And I support you, wholeheartedly because really we can stand up and be counted. You don't have to be stereotyped to somebody standing on the corner with the earring in a dress up to our navel trying to catch a trick. Some of us are really about business. I have a friend that's a drag queen that has a master's degree in nursing.

Buck: Uh huh.

Eugene: And they are doing extremely well and these are the type of people that should be focused on not so much of the drag queens just standing around The 

Domino's downtown, you know-

[Group laughter]

Twiggy: Is that a commercial? 

30:50.67

Buck: Now we’ll have to do a traffic report at Domino's. 

30:53.7

Eugene: We are all a family. 

Buck: Yes. 

Eugene: We are all family, I’m not- not goin- but there are  some that do it one way and some that do others but-

Karen: Well put. 

Twiggy: The gentleman said, society and the media focus in on the ones that stand around the Domino. And do not stand around the ones that’s got a master’s degree in nursing. 

31:10.77

Buck: Right. 

31:15.18

Eugene: You see, and this is what-

Twiggy: Well you know Eugene-

Eugene: You all are working hard to change-

Twiggy: You know what it is Eugene-?

Eugene: I just can’t praise you enough.

Twiggy: It's like even like somebody mentioned before. It's like a subculture within ourselves. Melissa Ross and I are strictly performers. We don't do anything other than perform on stage. We know that there are other female impersonators that do other livelihoods and we won't go into that. So there's a whole gamut even within ourselves that there’s some that we don't approve of. 

31:41.52

Melissa: So when you say that it is a family it truly is a family unfortunately it's more like the Manson family. 

Buck: And a dysfunctional family at times, yeah. 

31:48.68

Melissa: Yeah. 

31:51.2

Eugene: Now gentlemen, I’m so glad to see you all addressing this problem. I’m so glad that you’re all making America sit up and take note that we are human beings and we have class. 

Buck: And we put our pantyhose on one leg at a time just like anybody else. 

32:06.39

Gene thanks again for calling. 

Karen: Thanks, Eugene.

Eugene: Take care and I support you wholeheartedly. 

32:10.74

Buck: Thank you very much. This is the Gay 90’s  with Buck Harris, our number here is 578-1420. Give us a call if you would like to join Melissa and Twiggy and Karen and I in the studio here. 

32:29.8

[Sound clip plays] HAVE WE GOT NEWS FOR YOU.  HAVE WE GOT NEWS FOR YOU.  You better answer.

Kevin: This is Kevin Beaney with local news from the gay community. Cleveland's lesbian gay community service center has hired Judith Rainbrook as the executive director replacing Lee Robertson effective July 25. The announcement was made by board president Dolores at the center’s, at the Cleveland Lesbian and Gay Pride Festival on June 19th. Rainbrook has played an active role in the center including securing a grant that started the Living Room and starting the Garden Party as an annual fundraising event. Rainbrook was one of two finalist candidates chosen by the board's executive search committee last week. Lee Robertson who had been the executive director since January 1991 announced her decision to resign and return to school. She will formally turn over the reins to her successor at the center's garden party in July. Lesbian and Gay activists are studying the record of Supreme Court nominee Ruth Bader Ginsburg to determine if she will be counted as a supporter of equal rights for lesbians and gay Americans if confirmed by the Senate. Ginsburg would take the seat of a conservative jurist Justice Byron White. Ginsburg's record in support of women's rights is well-known her stand on lesbian and gay issues is a lot less clear. A particular case in 1984 has raised questions among activists in Dronenburg versus Zech, Ginsburg voted with the majority on a panel that refused to grant a rehearing to a gay sailor being discharged. There is some debate as to why Judge Ginsburg voted against a rehearing, Tim McFeely of the Human Rights Campaign Fund said. We want to get as clear and understanding as possible of her views on the issue. in Atlanta. Atlanta will officially recognize unmarried couples who live together including those of the same sex that the mayor signs two measures approved by the City Council this week. The city council approved a measure that allows domestic partners to register officially with the city. It also passed a second proposal allowing city employees to enroll their partners in the city's health and dental benefits plan. 

Mayor Maynard Jackson has eight days to sign or veto the bills. If he signs them, registration would not become effective until August and benefits would begin in January 1994. The Finance Department predicts it would cost more than two million dollars each year to add domestic partners to the city's benefit plans. About ten U.S. cities have similar laws. Under pressure the White House has been positioning President Clinton on Wednesday to retreat from his promise to completely lift the ban on gays in the military. Moving cautiously toward a decision the White House kept its distance from a reported compromise proposal from the Pentagon to allow gays to serve in the military only if they keep their sexual orientation private. That reported compromise would ban military personnel from declaring they are gay or from engaging in homosexual conduct anywhere. It also would label homosexual conduct as inconsistent with military service. Gay activists said they would reject a new language about homosexual conduct being inconsistent with military service. White House officials said they expected to get an interim report from Defense Secretary Les Aspin this week on his recommendations which are officially due July 15th. For more news about the gay community both locally and nationally pick up a copy of the Gay People's Chronicle, a new issue is out today look at more than 300 locations across northern Ohio for subscription information call 621-5280. This is Kevin Beaney editor of the Gay People's Chronicle for the Gay Nineties. 

35:37.96

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[A Little More Mascara Plays] 

When life is a real bitch-. 

36:18.65

Buck: [singing along] Again. And my own sense of humor has up and gone. [not singing] We can all sing along. [Back to singing] I put- for the big switch again-

Melissa: I did this show.

Buck: I put a little more mascara on. [stops singing] I just love that song.

36:30.56

La Cage Aux Folles, really- 

36:37.69

Twiggy: And the lashes look good tonight, too.

Buck: Do they?

[Some laughter]

Buck: La Cage Aux Folles really did change the world though.

Melissa: It did.

Buck: It was the first commercial venture. 

36:48.41

In theater that I can recall. And then eventually the movies of course, La Cage Aux Folles one and two and three which were also dubbed in English and received great support from the heterosexual world in the movie the play tour the country over and over and over and did work very well. 

37:05.1

That might have changed some people's views and attitudes. I mean the loving relationship that was shown. 

Melissa: And then they did the show here in Cleveland.

37:10.45

Buck: Yeah. 

Melissa: Local community theater did it twice. 

Buck: At Clegg didn’t he. 

Melissa: No. I started at two years in a row at Huntington playhouse.

Buck: Huntington That's right. 

Melissa: And then they did it out at and Lake, Lakeland community college. 

Buck: Is that right?

Melissa: Somewhere on the East side of yeah yeah.

Buck: Yeah. 

37:24.11

Buck: I mean that just shows the diversity of your career you do stage. I mean legitimate theater so to speak. 

37:29.64

Melissa: Well I consider what I do all the time legitimate theater if not more so because a lot of this community theater you you spend weeks and weeks and weeks and rehearsals and you spend weeks and weeks performing and you get no pay. Like Twiggy always says he's fine. 

37:42.42

Twiggy: I could tell that story but I had to leave one word out.

Melissa: An hour an hour getting ready and you go downtown and you get drinks for free. All the men you can meet and you get a paycheck at the end of the night.  That’s legitimate theater.

37:52.52

Twiggy: And wear pretty dresses.

Melissa: And you get to wear a pretty dress, too. 

Buck: Let's go back to the phones. 

37:57.54

Buck: Tim you're on.

Tim: Buck. 

37:59.49

Buck: Yes!

Tim: Hi, congratulations on your show, I hope everything is going real good for you. 

38:03.81

Buck: Well that depends on whether we get more advertising and you support the advertisers. But, thank you very much. 

38:08.74

Tim: Well I'll try to coax Christina into doing something about that. 

Buck: Oh this is 

Tim. Hi Tim how are you. 

Karen: Hi Tim.

Tim: Good. Good. Hi Melissa, Twiggy. 

Melissa and Twiggy simultaneously: Hello/Hi. 

38:17.97

Tim: I just wanted to say you know I've more or less came out and you know in your guys' bar and you know the community go and everything. I've seen you guys do a lot of hard work organizing getting things together you know. Doing a lot of good things for people and having you know entertaining people on top of it. 

38:43.13

Twiggy: Well Tim, it's like you know this, gay people are my family and I have of course my regular family also. But there's a lot obviously that we don't have in common. And I have so much in common with my gay and lesbian brothers and sisters so it's you know they are my family and I don't want to see any of that fall apart ever because I've come a long way in gay life. Along with a lot of other people. I remember the days still when people could really lose their jobs, it was basically illegal to be gay. And so usually when there's anything going on that I can help in any way to promote our lifestyle even though some don't like that. It's unfortunate but I have all intentions to keep on rolling on with it. I hope you do too. 

39:28.4

Tim: Well I just want to say you know like I see Melissa in Lesbian Vampires at the Cleveland Public Theater. 

Melissa: Oh, I forgot I did that too, yes.

Buck: Yeah.

[Assorted chuckling]  

39:36.31

Tim: I was, I was in, I brought two straight friends to that show, and they were in stitches.  They just, they thought it was fabulous.

39:37.02

Melissa: It was, it was a good show. 

39:39.52

Tim: Yeah it was, it was hilarious.

Melissa: Thank you.

Tim: And you did a great job, you made the whole show. 

Melissa: Thanks. 

Tim: But I just wanted to say, I think you guys you know, you’ve definitely you know.

Melissa: Well we do what we can.

Buck: Thanks.

Tim: You help people out, and we all have fun doing it.

Buck: Yep.  Thanks for calling, Tim.

Tim: Alright.

Melissa: Thank you.

Karen: Thanks Tim.

40:00.8?

Buck: David you’re next. 

David: Yeah hi. I'm I'm one of those gays that’s straight acting, I guess and-. 

40:07.33

Buck: And you know what. Why don’t you say that differently. Straight uh, straight acting, That For me it just really just the hair on the back of my neck goes up why don’t you say who's is who happens to be masculine. 

40:17.31

David: Oh that’s fine.

Buck: Yeah.

David: That’s fine. And I enjoy the drag shows and all of that. But I don't necessarily enjoy having drag queens around me. I think partly because probably the only thing I'd have to talk to them about is some showtunes I know. 

40:36.38

Melissa: OK, Have you ever taken the time to try and talk to some of them?

David: Oh, yeah

40:39.78

David: It, it we just you know. And partly because I enjoy the show and partly because, I I realize without them I wouldn't be able to be out as much as I am. So it kind of bothers me. Number one that. I don't I've got it I've got a few friends, acquaintances I'd say who are queens but. I just don't have a lot of. There's not much to talk about with them. 

41:09.41

Buck: You know let me tell you my experience because when I first began working at Twiggy’s and Melissa and I worked the bar together and Twiggy would just float in and out he was the owner and  he’d come in we'd all pay attention when he walked in the door and and but but I was a bit uncomfortable when I first met you only because first of all I just haven't known too many. I was pretty young and at the, the my life experience was pretty limited and I didn't know too many drag queens. The other part of it was I didn't I never had a desire an inclination even a remote idea about wanting to do drag. And so I couldn't imagine why someone would want to do that. Now you know what I have since I had rather a conversations with people who don't know anything about homosexuals. I can't imagine what it would be like to be turned on by or to relate sexually to another male. To me that seems absolutely foreign. 

42:00.59

Twiggy: You know what I think that is?  And I understand David's point. I really do I understand it very much so. First of all Normally if you're if you seeing Melissa Ross and myself in a nightclub and even after we’ve finished performing on stage and we’re usually still in costume will go to that the bar and stuff. We're not going to break that image until we go home that night. And of course we're not going to talk about very many serious subjects.

Buck: Football or-?

Twiggy: No. Now, oddly enough today a very dear friend of mine went over to Al’s and he's very masculine acting and we spent the afternoon talking about putting in some electrical lines. 

42:34.33

Melissa: I got that beat. I spent the day at a junkyard looking for a part for my car. Can you imagine me tripping around junkyards in the city of Cleveland?

Buck: Get outta here. 

Melissa: Yes.

42:41.81

Twiggy: So it's a contra-. It's a if you don't if you don't know us then you don't realize that-

Melissa: It’s that old thing you can't judge the book by its cover. 

42:49.3?

Tim: No, And I and I. Because I have been so misjudged by family and friends and whatever I, I try to overcompensate maybe to try to see the other person's point of view. I just I just find it uncomfortable mainly because I don't know what to talk about with somebody you know, after a show- 

Melissa: Well, tell you what-

Twiggy: What do you like to talk about? 

Tim: -after a show if you're coming down to the bar or something. 

43:15.53

Melissa: Next time you’re out make a point of coming up to me and telling me that you're you you'll find that we're almost two complete. Volumes of knowledge that you’ll know we can talk just about anything.

Karen: Two regular people. 

Melissa: Yes, we are. I mean I look-

Twiggy: But more glamorous and more beautiful than most of your friends. 

[Group laughter]

Karen: That’s a fact.

43:33.31

Buck: All right. 

43:34.11

Buck: Thank you very much for calling. We're going to continue on- Actually you know what we need to do for the time being. Do you guys like Mexican food?

Melissa: Yes.

Twiggy: Yes.

Buck: Well, that's a good, good answer. 

43:43.06

Twiggy: Do we like the Mexican food. 

43:46.66

Buck: But you know when I was at Pride Festival someone came up to me and said that they live in San Antonio for a number of years and they have now reside here in Cleveland and they did go to Fandango because they had heard a commercial on this very show and they said talk about authentic. Mike also he loves Mexican food and I got tired of going to Chi-Chi’s or to Choo-Choo’s or- 

Melissa: Oh, Chi-Chi's is not Mexican.

Buck: -Or whatever the hell are the names again. 

Twiggy: No that's American. 

Buck: But anyway so we went to Fandango’s and we've been going back ever since. Michael is a creature of habit so he always has their beef baruto- beef burritos.

Twiggy: Beef BARUTOS.

Buck: But their chicken enchiladas with mole sauce are exceptional. They also do serve beer and wine with their meals. They also have an outdoor courtyard Now on a night like tonight it might be kind of iffy but on the last Week the weather has been glorious. Also Luis Carlos is an absolute doll.

End of recording